DCPolitics

Feel The ($2.5 Trillion) Bern …

BERNIE SANDERS IS COMING … FOR YOUR WALLET Independent socialist U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders says his “Medicare for all” single-payer nationalized medicine plan would cost taxpayers $1.38 trillion … a year.  Crazy, huh? Hold up … how can there still be $1.38 trillion a year worth of “uncovered” Americans?  Wasn’t…

BERNIE SANDERS IS COMING … FOR YOUR WALLET

Independent socialist U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders says his “Medicare for all” single-payer nationalized medicine plan would cost taxpayers $1.38 trillion … a year.  Crazy, huh?

Hold up … how can there still be $1.38 trillion a year worth of “uncovered” Americans?  Wasn’t U.S. president Barack Obama‘s socialized medicine law supposed to take care of them?

(Ahem).

Anyway … Sanders has a way to pay for his plan.

“We will raise taxes,” Sanders told a Democratic town hall earlier this week. “Yes we will.”

Wow.  That’s one way to do it … but a platform based on broad-based tax hikes is not what the Democratic establishment wants to be touting heading into the upcoming November elections.  In fact Sanders’ scheme is so far to the left even uber-liberal former U.S. Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi – who rammed “Obamacare” through a reluctant, Democratic-controlled U.S. Congress in 2010 – doesn’t support it.

“We’re not running on any platform of raising taxes,” Pelosi told a crowd in Baltimore, Maryland this week.

That’s a wise decision … as this analysis from Market Research Foundation makes clear.

Despite his overt socialism and headwinds within his own party, Sanders is running neck-and-neck with presumed Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton in Iowa and has a big lead over her in New Hampshire.

There’s a looming problem for “The Bern,” though …

According to a new analysis, Sanders’ plan doesn’t cost $1.38 trillion a year … it costs $2.5 trillion a year.  Which means Sanders is going to have to more than double his proposed tax hikes if he wants the numbers to add up.

Sanders’ plan is “underfinanced by an average of nearly $1.1 trillion per year,” according to a new study by Emory University’s Kenneth E. Thorpe.

To fund the program, payroll and income taxes would have to increase from a combined 8.4 percent in the Sanders plan to 20 percent while also retaining all remaining tax increases on capital gains, increased marginal tax rates, the estate tax and eliminating tax expenditures,” concluded Thorpe, a former Bill Clinton advisor.

Thorpe’s most damning conclusion?  That 71 percent of American households with private insurance would be “worse off” under Sanders’ plan.

Yikes …

We like Sanders.  He seems like a nice guy.  But math is clearly not his strong suit.  Nor is simple logic …

Adding new layers of government intervention onto the American health care system has done nothing but create soaring costs and lower quality.  Imagine how much worse these outcomes will be when government runs everything?

***

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334 comments

Jose Wales January 29, 2016 at 11:09 am

We like Sanders. He’s a nice guy. And we believe he has good intentions.

Huh?So does the communist party in America.

Bernie Sanders ‘political revolution’
http://www.cpusa.org/

Reply
BernieBlows January 29, 2016 at 11:32 am

The Rule of Law is color-blind. Let’s go back to the Rule of Law.

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fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:17 pm Reply
Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 11:30 am

Sanders is a New York Jew – who’s family was slaughtered by Hitler. Why do you hate Jews?

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Jose Wales January 29, 2016 at 11:34 am

Muslim Obama hates Jews.

Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump said Thursday that he believes US President Barack Obama hates Israel, citing the recent nuclear deal with Iran which he said was “so bad” for the Jewish state.

“So many friends in Israel, they don’t know what happened,” he said of the agreement between Tehran and the US, along with other world powers. “They actually think Obama hates Israel. I think he does.”

http://www.timesofisrael.com/trump-obama-hates-israel-jewish-state-safe-with-me/

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flip January 29, 2016 at 11:35 am

Hi pogo! How is Terry?

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Jose Wales January 29, 2016 at 11:41 am

I have a friend named Terry in Florida.His daughter is a sheriff.You know him?

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 12:12 pm

You know the Sheriff of Alachua County? So if I get a ticket in Gainesville, you’re Democrat Sheriff friend can help me?

pogo January 29, 2016 at 12:13 pm

Yep, a democrat just like my oldest son.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:16 pm

Pogo, you’re a Democrat too, don’t lie!

Jose Wales January 29, 2016 at 11:37 am

Sanders honeymooned in the former USSR. Stalin and the boys slaughtered millions of Christians.

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flip January 29, 2016 at 11:38 am

pogo, go find something new to copy and paste.

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mamatiger92 January 29, 2016 at 11:41 am

Yes! Was hoping for a Sanders honeymoon reference. Sweet.

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Jose Wales January 29, 2016 at 11:44 am

How about a Bernie Sanders Castro reference?

A 31-year-old videotaped interview has been drudged up in which a young Bernie Sanders heaps praise on Cuba’s communist dictator Fidel Castro.

Sanders, mayor of Burlington, Vermont at the time and now the state’s independent senator seeking the 2016 Democratic presidential nomination, made the remarks in an interview on a local public access channel, the CCTV Center for Media & Democracy in Burlington.

The Vermont senator is a well-known – and self-described – socialist, and has remained independent in the Senate even though he caucuses with Democrats. He was elected to the U.S. House in 1991 and to the Senate in 2007.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3281335/Bernie-Sanders-praised-Fidel-Castro-1985-interview-educated-kids-gave-kids-health-care-totally-transformed-society.html#ixzz3yeWIht89

Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Not Trump January 29, 2016 at 11:46 am

Too bad Bernie couldn’t fight for Casto, like Canadian Cruz’s Dad.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:15 pm

A vote for Cruz is a vote for communism a la Cuba!

Not Trump January 29, 2016 at 11:48 am

Are those like Trumps remarks on being “very pro-choice”?
Or the remarks where he praises both Hillary and Obama?
Or the remarks about running as a Republican because their voters are so stupid?
Or the remarks where he supporter universal healthcare?
So many remarks….

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:15 pm

A lot of Trump fans do hate Jews. 62% of his retweets were from people who follow white supremacist groups! http://www.getlittlebird.com/blog/data-62-of-the-people-donald-trump-rted-this-week-follow-multiple-white-supremacist-accounts

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himmler January 30, 2016 at 3:04 am

ah geez new york jews are the worst jews

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mamatiger92 January 29, 2016 at 11:31 am

100th time you have posted that this week.See if Will can get you some new links and quotes before lunch.

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Bernie 2016 January 29, 2016 at 11:11 am

The government doesn’t run healthcare for most citizens now. Private insurance companies do and they are mainly to blame for rising costs…just like they have been for decades. Having the government take over would allow medical costs to be controlled. Bernie’s plan is better than anything any of the GOP has proposed, which is nothing. At least he gives voters specifics on what he plans to do, so it can be debated. Not getting anything even close to that from FitsNews’ boy, Trump.

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Will Folks aka Sic January 29, 2016 at 11:17 am

LOL. Well you Berners have the gift of gab if not the ability to count.

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Bernie 2016 January 29, 2016 at 11:23 am

And your plan would be? As it is, Trump and all the GOP candidates are offering to repeal Obamacare…with no plan to replace it. So basically, put you at the whims of the insurance companies. We can already provide single-payer healthcare to all of our citizens. Parts of Our insanely bloated and hardly monitored defense budget need to be redistrubuted. Corporate welfare needs to be reigned in. Is Trump even talking about this? What plan does he have and how will it work? Can you answer that?

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stumpknocker January 29, 2016 at 11:26 am

trump will build a big beautiful wall around all illnesses and make somalia pay for it.

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mamatiger92 January 29, 2016 at 11:32 am

Can we build a wall around flip & make GT pay for it?

Jose Wales January 29, 2016 at 11:36 am

Not a Wall big enough to contain my brain.

flip January 29, 2016 at 11:38 am

Just a skull thick enough, then?

stumpknocker January 29, 2016 at 11:43 am

the sad thing is there is not a toilet large enough to flush it to where it belongs.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:13 pm

Hey, don’t wall me off! I like posting here! LMAO!!! You can wall off my impersonator though, that guy seems like an atheist bigoted asshole.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:12 pm

I think he could give us an answer but I don’t think the one he would give us would actually improve outcomes for more people.

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FACT January 29, 2016 at 12:19 pm

Covert Rationing’ Is A Feature Of Single-Payer Health Care

by AuthorDavid Hogberg | DateMay 22, 2014 at 12:17 PM

About a week ago Elizabeth Price Foley wrote a very nice piece entitled “VA Scandals Raise The Specter Of Healthcare Rationing” at the Daily Caller. However, this one paragraph caught my eye:

Rationing care can take many forms. It can be overt, like the Canadian or British health care systems, which have unambiguous, publicly-announced waiting times and coverage denials for certain procedures. Or rationing can be more subtle, with little or no public participation. This latter, covert form of rationing is what the VA has adopted.

BERNIE wants to kill seniors to pay for illegals healthcare.

Reply
fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:26 pm

Hateful dishonest gibberish.

No reply January 29, 2016 at 12:44 pm

Welp, that shut Will the hell up.

Reply
just a moment January 29, 2016 at 12:48 pm

fl ? p/Rocky Will get back with you soon. :)

More Trump Articles January 29, 2016 at 11:28 am

Where’s the coverage of Trump’s ‘hide behind the veterans’ rally last night, where he raised $6 million for the Trump Foundatio…….er, I mean the veterans (but only the ones who were never POWs…they’re losers like McCain)?

Reply
Jose Wales January 29, 2016 at 11:31 am

It was on CNN last night.The Republican debate only drew 11 million without Trump (not the 23-24 million in previous debates with Trump) and CNN ratings were DOUBLE avg. Ratings skyrocketed in the 25-54 demographic Trump needs to turn out.

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mamatiger92 January 29, 2016 at 11:33 am

It was all the Pelosi & Schumer fans tuning in to see their new ally.

Jose Wales January 29, 2016 at 11:39 am

I thought Fits was going to get you some news material and links at the staff meeting? 6th time you have posted this.

mamatiger92 January 29, 2016 at 11:40 am

Thankfully we have you around with all that “fresh” Bernie Sanders material.

flip January 29, 2016 at 11:41 am

Hey pogo, have you heard from Terry L Ward lately?

Jose Wales January 29, 2016 at 11:42 am

I’m not pogo, but he ‘loans’ his son out to me.
Fellow NAMBLA buddy.

F.B.I. Surveillance Van January 29, 2016 at 11:46 am

SUCKER!!!!!

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:10 pm

You idiots the FCC is supposed to be out here not the FBI, the FCC does everything. I’m calling the FCC this morning because my trash didn’t get picked up yesterday. LMAO!!!

Jose 'taco' Belle January 29, 2016 at 12:15 pm

Do it after lunch Rocky.Moe’s today?

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:18 pm

Just call the FCC they can deliver food too, right? Or are they too busy going on witch hunts for you like your personal army? Wouldn’t want to distract them from such important business they don’t do! LMAO!!!

$$$$ January 29, 2016 at 12:20 pm

Will gives this bastard a raise!

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:25 pm

More libel. I do not think Will wants to be associated with a Bernie supporter like me! Maybe he should get with his lawyers to sue you? I know I would. I’m still taking action against my impersonator from earlier!

F.B.I. Surveillance Van January 29, 2016 at 12:30 pm

Speak a little louder.You must have changed rooms.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:41 pm

I, flip, support the woman’s right to have an abortion if she chooses. Is that better?

F.B.I. Surveillance Van January 29, 2016 at 12:44 pm

Better but who is that screaming ‘Heil Hitler” and ‘Praise Allah” in the background?

fits January 29, 2016 at 11:48 am

Back to work Rocky.I bought breakfast.

Jose Wales January 29, 2016 at 11:49 am

Bring your son over and I will get back to work, pogo ;-)

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:09 pm

Oh my! LMAO!!!!!!! Now that is funny!

Dem on the DL January 29, 2016 at 12:00 pm

Between your support for Trump and attack pieces from Clinton’s friends, I’m beginning to believe FitsNews is actively working for Hillary’s campaign.

Reply
fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:07 pm

Trump seems to be actively working for Hillary’s campaign, a lot of us have been saying that from day one. We know he’s donated to her campaigns in the past.

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stumpknocker January 29, 2016 at 12:10 pm

obviously i like your blog but i am surprised and disappointed in your trump endorsement, with the old school republicans and democrats in congress loathing him, how could he have the slightest chance of keeping any of the promises he is making? hell some of them are not even legal.

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Jose Wales January 29, 2016 at 11:28 am

Government control of health care would mean rationing and death panels.

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stumpknocker January 29, 2016 at 11:33 am

insurance companies are death panels and do ration your heath care, come down with cancer and see what happens to you, insurance companies won’t dole out the money to save you, you will only get the minimum treatment the law forces them to pay

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fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:07 pm

Hospitals don’t have to give chemo if you can’t afford it, so you have to be insured and hope the insurance company doesn’t refuse to pay for it. He seems to be OK with those death panels doesn’t he?

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do da do da January 29, 2016 at 12:13 pm

The Death Panel in Obamacare is named the Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB). What the law says about the powers of IPAB is horrific, worthy of a Third World, authoritarian autocracy, rather than the world’s leading democratic republic.

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/01/how_the_obamacare_death_panel_defies_the_constitution.html#ixzz3yedVTsw4

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:21 pm

Gibberish. Hateful gibberish. Oh my!!!

Bernie 2016 January 29, 2016 at 11:34 am

So? We need to educate the population about where and how to seek healthcare. Right now we have people filling ERs with non-emergant issues. We have people who abuse the system for with no real health problems. Things like that are driving costs up for everybody else. Insurance companies and hospitals do nothing to stop this. Other nations with successful single-payer systems educate their citizens. So having government control healthcare can bring down costs just through education. As it is, there is no incentive for private insurance companies or hospitals to do so.

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Sic Semper Tyrannis January 29, 2016 at 11:53 am

We know, Sarah said that years ago.

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fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:05 pm

Not true, doesn’t happen. Have you been to Europe or Canada? Nice try liar.

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hootie January 29, 2016 at 12:11 pm

Already happening under Obamacare:

1. Obamacare’s “Excess Benefits” Tax
Prevent Health Insurance from Keeping

Up with Medical Inflation

2.Insurance Exchanges Are Limiting

Your Ability to Use Your Own Money to

Save Your Family Members’ Lives

3. Medicare: Obamacare Limits Senior

Citizens’ Ability to Use Your Own Money to

Save Your Own Lives

4. Obamacare Limits What Health

Care Providers Can Do to Save the Lives of

Your Family Members

Reply
fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:22 pm

More lies and hateful gibberish. No proof.

BernieBlows January 29, 2016 at 11:30 am

“We’re not running on any platform of raising taxes,” (We don’t have to because it is the implication of all things Democrat. Even Obamacare, our pet project, is just another tax that solved no problems, and WE THE DEMOCRATS have ALLOWED the Insurance Companies to run things up by our own design) Pelosi told a crowd in Baltimore.

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Bernie 2016 January 29, 2016 at 11:36 am

Good point!
That’s why you need to vote for Bernie.

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fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:05 pm

Bernie > Pelosi, Reid, Obama, Biden, Hillary, Kerry, Schumer and a lot of the others too!

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just a fact January 29, 2016 at 12:07 pm

Bernie Sanders is a “liberal weasel Jew” who hates Christians and America.

Sanders may as well be working for Hillary Clinton because by espousing the stupidity that he espouses, it makes her look like a centrist even though she’s a leftist. So he may as well be just a front man for her, a warm up act.

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fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:22 pm

Why did you call him a Jew like that is an insult? You’re an anti-semite who hates Jews huh? You a Neo Nazi?

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:04 pm

If Obamacare were socialism then the state would own the hospitals and we wouldn’t have private insurance. What Obama did was solidify private industry as the provider of health care, he just made them give us a few concessions for it. They are still swindling us bigtime. While the improvements are nice they don’t compare to the good that Bernie’s system could do! Go Sanders!

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Daniel Boome January 29, 2016 at 2:55 pm

“The government doesn’t run healthcare for most citizens now.”

Ummm…..yeah, actually they pretty have run the healthcare industry entirely for the last several decades. Even the insurance paid for by “private” insurers is done by an industry that is uber-regulated by the feds. “Private” insurance is hardly private at all.

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Willie is sick January 29, 2016 at 11:23 am

Willie your arithmetic is Sick! It’s fodder for the ignorant repugs!

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stumpknocker January 29, 2016 at 11:24 am

what do you expect from a trumper?

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Thanks January 29, 2016 at 11:45 am

Could somebody list the GOPs candidates alternate plans for healthcare?

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stumpknocker January 29, 2016 at 11:46 am

yes, here it is

satisfied?

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mamatiger92 January 29, 2016 at 11:47 am

**crickets**

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Jose Wales January 29, 2016 at 11:51 am

All the Republicans have health care plans.Google their websites.Don’t worry.Obamacare destroyed our healthcare system.We will fix it.

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flip January 29, 2016 at 11:54 am

Can’t find anything, huh?

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fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 11:57 am

Now that gays get married Jose should try asking his hubby to put him on his plan. LMAO!!!

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guest January 29, 2016 at 11:58 am

Obama’s legacy-queers getting married.LMAO!!!!

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 11:59 am

Obama had nothing to do with the Supreme Court case, he isn’t a justice. Someone needs to read their Constitution. Oh my! LMAO!!!

autofill January 29, 2016 at 1:14 pm

It wasn’t until the ACA that the GOP realized healthcare wasn’t affordable

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Sic Semper Tyrannis January 29, 2016 at 11:51 am

Can somebody list anything the GOP has done the last 8 years?

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RIP GOP January 29, 2016 at 11:53 am

They shutdown the government in 2013.
Then handed Obama everything he wanted.
So there’s that…..

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Jose Wales January 29, 2016 at 11:53 am

Won the house
Won the senate
control 34 governerships
1000+ seats in state legislatures

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Thanks January 29, 2016 at 11:54 am

That’s the accomplishment of the voters.
What did they do once in office?

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fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 11:56 am

Complain, block progress, almost cause a default on the debt?

Point of Order January 29, 2016 at 12:38 pm

Well, the government defaults routinely by way of money creation to meet the bills, so that’s already a given.

Jose Wales January 29, 2016 at 11:56 am

Destroyed the Democrat Party while ELIMINATING any chance for Amnesty and a path to citizenship.

Dems can’t win elections anymore without a new base of voters and that has been cut off.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 11:57 am

Trump destroyed the Republican party. He’s going to hand the election to Hillary. God bless Donald Trump, the troll of the Republican party!

ho ho January 29, 2016 at 11:59 am

That must have been quiet a staff meeting this morning. Fits have a keg for the gang?

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:02 pm

If I did work for FITS it would mean I have a job, something you don’t have. LMAO!!!

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 12:44 pm

That Hal guy’s just kickin’ it in the office pool.

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 12:30 pm

We sat around, read this weeks Lexington Chronical, compared who had the most front page stories, played some nerf basketball, had some bagels. What did you do?

Dr.Welby January 29, 2016 at 12:32 pm

I bet you were funnier when you were a chain smoker.

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 12:33 pm

Nope, just a funny. We like the Chronic!!!

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:34 pm

Mostly hang out with GT all day LMAO!!!

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 12:29 pm

Give Obama all he wanted – yeeowza!!!

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:34 pm

LMAO!!! How true! Thanks Republicans!

mamatiger92 January 29, 2016 at 2:38 pm

What’d that get you?

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fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 11:55 am

Take it in the ass from Obama with no lube? LMAO!!! Go Obama!

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stumpknocker January 29, 2016 at 11:57 am

should i go ahead and flag him or does anyone find this clown entertaining?

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fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 11:58 am

I’m just being good old flip! Can’t stand Republicans. They are against gay marriage, abortion, and health care, would never vote for them.

stumpknocker January 29, 2016 at 1:00 pm

sorry man, thought it was your evil impersonator

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 11:54 am

Curbside service, die on the streets!

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The Colonel (R) January 29, 2016 at 12:31 pm Reply
Thanks January 29, 2016 at 12:36 pm

Thank you. If you remove the term ‘repeal Obamacare’ from all of their alternatives, you would not have much left. Basically, it looks like they want private insurance companies to continue to control our healthcare costs with a tax break to help pay for our ever increasing premiums. No wonder they aren’t talking specifics!

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The Colonel (R) January 29, 2016 at 1:07 pm

Repealling ObamaCare would be a great start…

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TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:12 pm

“Basically, it looks like they want private insurance companies to continue to control our healthcare ”

The irony of your statement is that’s still happening. The ACA has become a crony gift to big insurers.

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Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:19 pm

True, it funnels millions new customers to insurance.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:50 pm

Taxpayer subsidized, now with the increasing rates of course…which was not supposed to happen according to the ACA debates at the time.

They can cook the books for a few years on the accounting side(think off budget SS deficits), but it’s going to the same place European/Canadian health care is going over time.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:39 pm

Not very detailed plans, a lot of them would have severe detrimental effects. I’ll stick with Bernie.

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RogueElephant January 29, 2016 at 12:33 pm

Health care savings plans. The ability to buy ins. across state lines. The place I worked before I retired did something like the saving plan. Each year you were allotted so much money for health care. Determined by what you had used last yr. You could add as much as you wanted to the amount. Like if you were going to have elective surgery , you could add that little by little to the mix. You basically controlled your own health care costs. People were more inclined to ask what a med. procedure was going to cost when it came out of their pocket. A much better system that did the job and the employee could build savings for an unseen emergency. The candidates have various plans , all better than Obummercare.

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GREAT POST! January 29, 2016 at 12:35 pm

Rogue PLEASE don’t blow their socialist minds with facts and the thought of rugged individualism. :)

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Sure, tough guy January 29, 2016 at 12:40 pm

You’re a rugged individual who will run to the ER the second you feel ill and allow the government to pay for it, but whatever….

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fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:42 pm

He doesn’t want the government to pay for it, he wants everyone to pay for it through higher hospital costs and insurance premiums. Isn’t that so much better? LMAO!!!

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 12:45 pm

Come on now, that’s not a fair characterization. That’s just speculation.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:00 pm

As far as I’m concerned if you are not against the mandate by government for emergency rooms to see and stabilize uninsured patients, then you are for having those exorbitant costs passed on to others when the hospital increases its costs to patients that are insured.

Are you sure that isn’t a fair characterization? If you think government should force hospitals to see people then you are supporting raising costs on others to pay for it.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:07 pm

I can’t follow your line exactly-

Did he say he was for emergency room mandates?

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 2:23 pm

All he has said in the past is that he wants Obamacare repealed and that’s all. If that’s all he wants, or if he supports any of the Republican candidates’ reforms, he is fine with the ER mandate. Since he is basically a GOP cheerleader I doubt he would have a problem with it anyways since Raygun signed it into law.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 2:57 pm

“If that’s all he wants, or if he supports any of the Republican candidates’ reforms, he is fine with the ER mandate. ”

I haven’t seen him write that, but I guess I’ll take your word for it.

Tom January 29, 2016 at 1:57 pm

He is already on Medicaid. He does not pay for his health care.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 12:35 pm

The question presumes that government “must do something”-

I like your free market response, kudos to you.

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fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:40 pm

Government is the only one that can fix this mess. Works in many other wealthy countries, why not ours?

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stumpknocker January 29, 2016 at 12:43 pm

too many ignorant republicans determined to shoot themselves in the ass and taking the rest of the country with them

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 12:44 pm

Look, if you want socialized healthcare no one wants to stop you, just don’t force those who don’t want it to participate.

stumpknocker January 29, 2016 at 12:47 pm

i think your heart is in the right place with your comment but it would not be socialized if we are not all in.

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 12:55 pm

But when they don’t participate, and then need it, they show up at the freakin’ door expecting it like moochers.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:01 pm

I don’t think a lot of right wingers can see themselves as being suddenly dirt poor. “It can happen to anyone, just not me!”

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:03 pm

That’s not the issue….the poor isn’t a run to run society by compulsion, force/coercion.

Tom January 29, 2016 at 2:31 pm

You know there are plenty of places that operate the way you want. Why do you live in this Country. Taxes are not compulsion. Taxes are the price of civilization.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 2:50 pm

” Taxes are not compulsion. ”

lol

Do me a favor and let the IRS know that.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 2:51 pm

If everyone in the country refused to pay their taxes there isn’t much that the IRS could do about it.

Now, what would happen to this country if people did that? I can see Putin rubbing his hands with glee.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 2:55 pm

The Putin card eh?

lol

No disputing your first sentence however, we can only dream…however there’s no question the IRS is all about compulsion- to suggest otherwise is laughable.

Tazmaniac January 29, 2016 at 4:52 pm

Why do you think the IRS bought so much ammo? Hint: it isn’t for keeping us safe from Putin.

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:08 pm

‘Cause I’m gonna make it big like Donald.

stumpknocker January 29, 2016 at 1:09 pm

saw it happen to a few during the great recession and what did they do? waited until Obama was elected then blamed it on him.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:02 pm

So what if they do?

Look the world isn’t a perfect place- but the question is who/what you put your faith in. Faith in government…ugh.

There used to be a lot of religious hospitals about for a reason.

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:08 pm

But the thing is, right now, we get our insurance through private companies. I get mine through my employer as do most people. If you buy it on the exchange you get it from a private employer. If you get Medicare you’re on socialized medicine under your definition. I just think people need to be insured because “look, the world isn’t a perfect place.”

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:09 pm

” I just think people need to be insured because “look, the world isn’t a perfect place.”

The problem is that the solution to the need you’ve identified is forced, compelled, etc.

No one denies the “need”, it’s the answer that’s in question.

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:17 pm

Well find me a way to get the lazies to buy insurance, without compelling them, and I’m all in.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:18 pm

Death is pretty compelling for most people.

:)

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:20 pm

You’d think, but then some panzy governor (D and R) will say – oh but we’ze gots to help ’em.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:21 pm

But that’s a government problem….I’m glad to see you coming around.

:)

Tazmaniac January 29, 2016 at 4:48 pm

Not like it can’t be done. No one puts a gun to my head to donate to St. Jude or Shriners.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 12:43 pm

Define “works”.

Socialized healthcare is struggling financially in many countries in the Norwegian zone now, their innovation stifled, their taxes high, etc.

On my recent trip to Canada you can see the wait times getting even worse….

It takes time for bad policy to show itself, especially when as Adam Smith put it “there’s a lot of ruin in a nation”.

stumpknocker January 29, 2016 at 12:45 pm

pure bullshit, why don’t you go take a look at where we rank in the world in health care, i think we around 24th

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 12:46 pm

Ho hum, we could go back and forth all day.

Look if you want it, have it- just have the decency to make it optional at least in the “land of the free”.

Bernie 2016 January 29, 2016 at 12:49 pm

Unfortunately, with healthcare in the USA, we live in the “land of the fee”.
It’s beyond time to try Single-payer.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 12:49 pm

No, it’s time to try freedom instead of compulsion.

:)

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:54 pm

We used to have freedom, that was back when “doctors” sold “elixirs” that cured everything. Doesn’t sound like a better system to me.

Snake oil salesmen still exist too, they just sell supplements instead of elixirs, because the FDA doesn’t give a flip. LMAO!!!

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:05 pm

Why would you compare freedom to a time under which people sold elixirs? It’s a non-sequitur. Wet sidewalks cause rain,etc.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:13 pm

Laws and law enforcement prevents people from selling miracle drugs. Since we don’t enforce those same laws on supplements snake oil salesmen instead sell miracle supplements. Fix your back aches, get rid of that belly fat, rid those migranes, all you need is this pill full of fillers with a few trace vitamins mixed in.

When you don’t regulate you get whatever anyone wants to hand out, whether it is gold or poop.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:15 pm

When you regulate every aspect of society to stop a few from getting harmed outside of caveat emptor you’ve created a regulated society…not free.

The way to deal with fraud is a court…not regulation. (if you want a free society)

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:37 pm

Courts enforce laws and regulations. “Fraud” is prosecuted in court specifically because it is against the law.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:42 pm

You somehow missed my point.

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:52 pm

Hey, gotta go, been fun Trouble.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 2:11 pm

Scammers are resourceful, they find “legal” ways to rob people blind all the time. As time goes on regulations are created to stop the more widespread ones from happening, at least above the table anyways.

We are a regulated society because we learned the hard way what happens when things aren’t regulated.

stumpknocker January 29, 2016 at 12:59 pm

what do you think of social security? we are forced to pay it.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:04 pm

The same, I argue against it below.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:47 pm

Sure, I’ll define works. “Works” is that it provides decent service to as many people as possible. That’s what health care should be.

To many the difference between what other countries have and what we have is that in other countries they have to wait in line, in ours they go bankrupt or are refused service. If I had to choose between the two I’d rather wait in line.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 12:48 pm

Well, that’s fine. But you used the word “had to choose”, all I’m saying is if you want socialized healthcare people should be allowed to have it or not.

Society should operate on a freedom/voluntary basis, not compulsion.

Social Security could work the same way, on a voluntary basis.

It used to be the American way. (freedom of choice,etc.)

Tazmaniac January 29, 2016 at 4:46 pm

I wonder why they haven’t thought of a voluntary Govt. run “Socialized Medicine Fund” ???

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 12:56 pm

My wife has a friend from High School was diagnosed with breast cancer in the Summer. Lives in Toronto. Never waited a day for treatment.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:02 pm

If she were uninsured in America, she could’ve waited for the rest of her life, however short it would have been. Go free market!

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:04 pm

That’s simply not true.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:15 pm

It is a harsh truth for a lot more Americans than anyone wants to admit.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:17 pm

I disagree, there’s plenty of outlets still for people to get diagnosis, & treatment even with limited means…but I will say there are less such outlets now than 20 years ago.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:28 pm

Forcing all of society to accommodate the small percentage of those suffering makes things worse in the big picture.

For the foreseeable future, we will continue to have the poor, sick,etc.

However I have hope that over time as man builds wealth, & assuming he can steer clear of war or blowing himself up, that there will be enough wealth one day to make these issue so small as to no longer worry.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:34 pm

Forcing society to make sure cancer patients will be universally covered means that anyone who gets cancer doesn’t have to worry about going bankrupt or getting sent home to die. It will make things “worse” for people who are rich and don’t have cancer? Cancer-free rich people will survive, don’t worry.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:41 pm

“Cancer-free rich people will survive, don’t worry.”

I was never “worried” about that, that’s your little straw man so you can try to imply I care more about rich people than poor.

Not cool.

“Forcing society to make sure cancer patients will be universally covered means that anyone who gets cancer doesn’t have to worry about going bankrupt or getting sent home to die.”

I’m glad you admit that force is the MO. I have some bad news for you though, everyone is going to die at some point…and that doesn’t(shouldn’t?) make them entitled to everyone else’s money to put it off some more.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 2:09 pm

” I have some bad news for you though, everyone is going to die at some point…and that doesn’t(shouldn’t?) make them entitled to everyone else’s money to put it off some more.”

The difference between getting cancer treatment and not getting cancer treatment can mean the difference between living until you are 80 and dying before you reach 30.

“I was never “worried” about that, that’s your little straw man so you can try to imply I care more about rich people than poor.”

Insurance costs are incredibly crippling to people making less than $30,000 a year and barely noticeable to people making over $300,000 a year. Single payer could lift the burden on those who can’t afford it and place more of a burden on those who are already well off. Less burden on someone making $30,000 a year means they can pay their bills. More burden on a person making $300,000 a year means that guy who bought the $50,000 4×4 you mentioned earlier might have to wait to get the lift kit he wanted.

Tazmaniac January 29, 2016 at 4:42 pm

Really? Because it didn’t seem to work so well for David Bowie or Glen Frey, dead rich people everyday.I would gamble that if the numbers were looked up there would be that big of a difference in life expectancy. Certainly not proportionate to income differences.

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:19 pm

Trouble, on principle I see your point. But for goodness sake, make the moochers pay for insurance and get off the dole.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:20 pm

Seriously, free society doesn’t require us to “make” people do anything. Those people rolling around in a new $50,000 Dodge 4×4 that decided to buy it instead of insurance suffer for their decision.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:22 pm

What if they can’t afford a car or health coverage?

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:24 pm

Well, I’m not a religious person- but I truly feel like churches, & people of general good will step up to take care of those people the best they can. The ability to do so is furthered when they don’t have as high a tax burden.

I do not believe government is an efficient supplier of healthcare, mail, road, courts, etc. et al

I think basically a free market can always provide a better product at a lower cost.

pogo January 29, 2016 at 1:25 pm

Excellent post.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:31 pm

A century ago that is how it worked because no programs were around to help people. It was awful, which is why we have programs now. There isn’t enough “voluntary” aid. Money sent to churches may go towards other non-charitable projects like expanding the church or remodeling before it goes towards people in need. Money sent to charities can be squandered if sent to a scrooge charity. Even if the money makes it to the cause you want it to, there isn’t a guarantee that it will be enough to fill the need.

People will die in your system for lack of funds to pay for their health care. Many people will, even if you don’t want to admit it.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:39 pm

“There isn’t enough “voluntary” aid. ”

There isn’t enough “involuntary” aid either….

“People will die in your system for lack of funds to pay for their health care.”

This already happens…even under the current system…it’s just a matter of who/what is deciding how much to spend and where they get the money from. (stealing it or voluntary)

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 2:04 pm

The current system allows hospitals to turn patients away for treatment. Single payer would cover everyone, even if they would have to “wait” for it.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 2:07 pm

“The current system allows hospitals to turn patients away for treatment.”

I was under the impression that certain hospitals could not(depending on their funding from gov’t)-

Regardless, my main objection to redistribution, whether in the form of healthcare or whatever is that it undermines voluntary society and promotes a lack of respect for property rights.

Tazmaniac January 29, 2016 at 4:36 pm

In Progressive Utopia, there is no need for property rights. Makes you wonder why the hippy communes of the 60s didn’t morph in to world Powers. LOL

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:32 pm

So my Aunt had polio, spent a lot of time at FDR’s treatmetn place in Georgia. FDR didn’t pay for it. Neither did some NYC sugar daddy.

Tazmaniac January 29, 2016 at 4:31 pm

That is why the “Great Society” was implemented. Churches were doing the job of taking care of the needy and poor families were intact, Government was jealous of their power and decided to take over the freebies business and the power that comes with it. We all know the famous quote of LBJ’s, no need to repeat such trash again.We have been in the “War on Poverty” ever since with nothing to show for it. Iraq, which I didn’t want, was a drop in the bucket comparatively.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:20 pm

The ones that get help through Medicaid probably did “pay for it” before they got sick.

look in the mirror January 29, 2016 at 1:21 pm

You’re NON Citizen mother in law gets a Obamacare taxpayer funded subsidy and you are calling people ‘moochers’???? ha ha ha

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:25 pm

That’s the law jackass. You’re over 65 and a legal resident alien, you get covered. Don’t like it, suck on it with your Bundy Standoff candies you signed for.

rocky welfare January 29, 2016 at 1:26 pm

moocher!

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:30 pm

Putz!!

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:38 pm

At least Rocky is employed and pays taxes.

F.B.I. Surveillance Van January 29, 2016 at 1:40 pm

You moonlight as book keeper at Fits? How much does he pay? :)

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:42 pm

I have no idea what Will pays his employees since I don’t work for him. Are you looking for a job now? You should email Will and ask about that.

ha ha ha!!!! January 29, 2016 at 1:45 pm

Sure.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:59 pm

So you will email him? Great! Good luck, I do want you to find a job!

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:50 pm

Wil provides benefits. How’s that free lancin’ stuff going?

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:50 pm

A lot of taxes I might add.

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:56 pm

Remember when he asked you “politely” to not communicate with him anymore, then said based on advise from his attorney, he would no longer post on FITS, and that his attorney neighbor was driving over to Lexington to file a law suit?

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:58 pm

You aren’t entertaining the notion that he actually has a lawyer are you? Lawyers are expensive and won’t do frivolous cases like his without retainer because they know it is a losing case. He’s unemployed so he can’t afford them. I doubt anyone would go pro bono for him.

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 2:00 pm

Tango might give him the bro bono – oh wait – they’re the same person.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 2:03 pm

Who would want GT as a lawyer? He would just stand up, blame everything on Obama, rest his case, and then get this mad look when the judge didn’t dismiss it.

Tazmaniac January 29, 2016 at 4:21 pm

How did making the moochers pay cost me my free cadillac plan, my DR, and now I’m paying for a definitely crappy plan?

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:04 pm

Lot’s of people die from pneumonia, colds, etc.

You follow?

Tazmaniac January 29, 2016 at 4:17 pm

Like Greece, France, Spain, or everyone’s favorite, Sweden(I posted a link to where they are in quite a mess, easy to Google)? I’ve heard it has been wonderful to live there.

frank rosenthal January 30, 2016 at 2:51 am

really ? you think our government can fix it. i got some prime real estate i’ll sell ya

h January 30, 2016 at 2:29 pm

WHO’s Top 25 Countries for healthcare:

1 France

2 Italy

3 San Marino

4 Andorra

5 Malta

6 Singapore

7 Spain

8 Oman

9 Austria

10 Japan

11 Norway

12 Portugal

13 Monaco

14 Greece

15 Iceland

16 Luxembourg

17 Netherlands

18 United Kingdom

19 Ireland

20 Switzerland

21 Belgium

22 Colombia

23 Sweden

24 Cyprus

25 Germany

Reply
Thanks January 29, 2016 at 12:39 pm

That does nothing to address out of control premiums. It just adds to them. A single, catastrophic health event would still wipe you out and leave you with huge medical bills. Single payer is the way to go.

Reply
Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 12:51 pm

So, Rogue, if you were going to pay for your potential healthcare costs with a savings plan, and let’s say you have a 10 year old that needs the old appendix out, cost is $55,000. Assuming you started saving when little Billy was born, and Billy never needed to go the pediatrician for a cold, or flue, or fever, or annual physicals, or never got the ring-worm shots, or polio or anything else, you would have had to be putting $400 a month away, for the last 10 years. And then, maybe, you’de cover it. And you’re new savings care plan balance would be – $0. Better hope Billy don’t break a foot or get a sprain for at least – I dunno – another three years. Of course, you could have paid that in insurance, it would have been pretty much covered except for say $2,500 in deductibles, and if he got an infection, or there was some other complication, and he needed another $15,000 in medical care it would be covered. Or did your Savings plan include a hidden $15,000?

Reply
fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:56 pm

If there was no regulations he could have the operation performed by a shady person in a back alley for $300 who probably hasn’t been to one semester of college.

Reply
Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 12:57 pm

But he might get the wrong appendage.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:03 pm

Well then everyone else knows not to use that shady back-alley doctor and will use a different one.

U and Rocky are COMMIES! January 29, 2016 at 1:07 pm

Canadian Health Care: Patients Waiting Longer Than Ever For Treatment

12/30/2015 6:05 PM EST

Socialist Medicine: Canadians love their hockey and have historically been happy with their government-run health care system. Hockey is thriving. The country’s health care system, though, is a wreck and getting worse.

It could be said the words “Canada” and “health care” really don’t go together because some Canadians never make it to the doctor.

Too many die untreated due to extended wait times to see a doctor, and those wait times have increased again this year. They are now almost twice as long as they were in 1993, the year Hillary Clinton tried to force government health care on Americans.

The Fraser Institute says that in 2015, Canadians waited an average of 18.3 weeks to see a specialist, “slightly longer than the 18.2 week wait reported in 2014” and “97% longer than in 1993, when it was just 9.3 weeks.”

http://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/canada-wait-times-deadly-and-take-longer-than-ever/

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:07 pm

Bingo! Believe me, I was just there, it’s getting worse.

Tom January 29, 2016 at 1:12 pm

Big T, what you cannot get around is that Canadians are happier with their health care than Americans are with their health care. Canadians live longer than we do and are healthier than we are. In addition you are on Medicaid so we are paying for your health care. Of course you are happy.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:14 pm

Canadian demographics are vastly different than America’s in terms of obesity, race, & a host of other areas…none of which are directly related to their healthcare system.

Tom January 29, 2016 at 1:26 pm

Well I look at this way. You may or may not be right, but the oldest and sickest of us are already on Medicare. Adding healthy people to the Medicare rolls should make the cost of care per person go down. I would be willing to wait a little longer for a doctor to save 5K to 10K a year in costs. Plus you can buy private insurance if you want.

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:14 pm

So how do you explain that Switzerland and Germany the wait times are the same as the US? We’ll be waiting.

Here’s the link to start.http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/health_glance-2011-en/06/08/g6-08-01.html?itemId=/content/chapter/health_glance-2011-59-en&_csp_=484d3d91b843a9804bc912701c46682d

CHECKMATE! January 29, 2016 at 1:16 pm

Do they have 350,000,000 million people with 30 million illegals and NON citizens flooding the Medicaid rolls?

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:16 pm

Yes – from Syria, Turkey, Greece – blah blah blah. So again, please let me know when you’ve completed your analysis and respond.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:25 pm

I agree, let’s kick you off Medicaid, that’ll save some money! LMAO!!

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:24 pm

Waiting in line is better than no line to wait in.

U got no street cred January 29, 2016 at 1:10 pm

Not everybody is an Obamacare tax cheat like receiving a taxpayer funded subsidy for NON citizen family members?

Reply
Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:15 pm

Did you get the candies I sent you? Was gonna send them to Bundy but he’s in jail. I got a saltier one if you need it.

rocky the crossing guard January 29, 2016 at 1:18 pm

Save em for the bus stop next time you are preying on children.

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:21 pm

Aren’t you suing people for claiming you’re a Ped? I mean Dude, this won’t help your case. Besides, you already signed for the candies with Fed Ex. Or someone at your apartment did.

laying hands on January 29, 2016 at 1:23 pm

I meant praying on children. :)

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:24 pm

Better watch out for the candies, they’re spicey hot. They gots little caramel cream on the inside though.

9" January 29, 2016 at 1:29 pm

UHMM Goetz’s.Wish I was a little boy

9" January 29, 2016 at 2:52 pm

It was a cute lil blonde boy with turquoise eyes.My Fed Ex BF did the delivery,and it made him feel dirty..

9" January 29, 2016 at 1:25 pm

Ted Bundy was a friend of mine,and he’s NO Ted Bundy!

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:26 pm

DId I say Ted? I must have some sick stuff on my mind.

9" January 29, 2016 at 1:27 pm

Jeez,Rocky…

F.B.I. Surveillance Van January 29, 2016 at 1:27 pm

That late night gay porn get ya Rocky? Turn it down next time.

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:29 pm

Best porn is in braille.

Ben Hurr Jr. January 29, 2016 at 1:31 pm

Even 9″ thinks you’re a weirdo.That is saying something.

9" January 29, 2016 at 2:45 pm

NO,I don’t.Rocky is going to be next VP,when Arnold Ziffel becomes president.It’ll be just like that Rex Harrison movie!

mamatiger92 January 29, 2016 at 2:30 pm

Hypocrite.

RogueElephant January 30, 2016 at 9:20 am

There were provisions built into the system for major med. expenses. I’m definitely not an ins. expert . But anytime you can make anything owned and managed by the individual rather than govt. it is a better way to operate.

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Tom January 29, 2016 at 1:13 pm

Selling insurance across state lines will have no material impact on the cost of insurance. That is a GOP red herring. Just like tort reform was a red herring.

Reply
TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:17 pm

How can you possibly say that? Since when has more competition ever yielded higher prices?

Reply
Tom January 29, 2016 at 1:21 pm

Its easy. It sounds simple but its not. You cannot allow an Insurance company that is based in say Wyoming with Wyoming insurance rules to openly sell insurance in New York and California without conforming to NY and CA rules regarding reserve requirements and coverage. If you do you will end up with all the insurance companies in the nation, located in one state and heavily under reserved.

So if Wyoming Mutual wants to sell insurance in California they will have to comply with California Rules. They could already do that if they wanted to. But they don’t because they would have to increase their premiums and could not compete.

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:28 pm

To add to that see – “getting screwed by your homeowners insurance following hurricanes”

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:31 pm

That’s a gov’t regulation problem….additionally as an example, you may not be aware that the SCDOI up until the ACA tightly controlled who could sell what here in state.

(and I’m not saying the ACA was a good solution, just pointing things out)

Tom January 29, 2016 at 1:37 pm

Yes I am aware. It is not a regulation problem unless you are calling for federal regulation. The only reason that insurance is less expensive in some states than in other is because of the reserve and coverage requirements of the various state Insurance Departments. Each state determines what its population needs.

The only way selling across state lines would decrease cost is if you eliminated state insurance departments and had no rules or you had federal regulation which may or may not decrease cost.

You can already sell across state lines if you are willing to meet all the requirements to sell insurance in a state. As I said this is a red herring. There is no material benefit here.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:43 pm

“The only way selling across state lines would decrease cost is if you eliminated state insurance departments and had no rules”

Well there you go. You started and ended your own argument.

Tom January 29, 2016 at 1:49 pm

You seem to not be able to see beyond the end of your nose. If you allow under reserved companies to sell insurance in your state you will end up have to cover all their customers when they go under. The cost would go up ultimately not down. You would end up with a bunch of shyster setting up insurance companies in the state with the laxest rules, selling bunch of insurance, pocketing big salaries and disappearing when they could not pay up.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:51 pm

“You seem to not be able to see beyond the end of your nose”

lol, says the man denying basic supply & demand

Tom January 29, 2016 at 1:55 pm

What don’t you get about this? No one is denying supply and demand. There will be no new supply unless you eliminate state rules. Any insurance company in the country can sell insurance in SC right now. They just have to meet SC rules. The state would be a fool to allow unregulated insurance companies to sell in the state. We’ve gone through that before.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:58 pm

” No one is denying supply and demand.”

“which may or may not decrease cost.”

Uh huh.

Tom January 29, 2016 at 2:08 pm

I said federal regulation may or may not decrease cost. Not supply and demand. Read my post. Unless you are willing to let people die because they cannot afford health care your system fails. I am not. I would rather have universal care than allow a person to die because they have no money.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 2:16 pm

“The only way selling across state lines would decrease cost is if you eliminated state insurance departments and had no rules or you had federal regulation which may or may not decrease cost.”

Increased supply with static demand=lower price

It doesn’t matter what the regs are if they don’t exist Tom, hence you are denying supply & demand.

“Unless you are willing to let people die because they cannot afford health care your system fails”

People die whether they have money or not, so you haven’t even framed your statement improperly.

The issue is WHEN they die, not “if”- and if someone has had some tragic accident or bad luck I’m not ready to tell everyone in society they must pay for it for a variety of reasons:

1. Because societies that respect private property are wealthier and have better standards of living.
2. Theft is immoral, no matter what the circumstance.

Tom January 29, 2016 at 2:40 pm

Let me make this clear. The only way selling across state lines would possibly decrease the cost of insurance is if we have no insurance rules or we have federal regulation. No insurance rules would be a disaster over time. Federal regulation may or may not lower the cost of insurance.

The free market has always been abysmal at bringing reasonable health care to the masses. Before Medicare 50% of the people in this country over the age of 65 had no health insurance. That number was higher in the rural states, like SC.

Just because everybody dies does not mean they have to die early. We have an inalienable right to life. The purpose of government is to secure that right. If healthcare is necessary to secure that right, then the government should provide health care. That is “core function.”

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 2:49 pm

lol

Tom January 29, 2016 at 3:09 pm

We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. THAT TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS GOVERNMENTS ARE INSTITUTED AMONG MEN……

At least the Founders thought it was self evident.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 3:13 pm

“Theft is the price of civilization”- Tom

Tom January 29, 2016 at 3:18 pm

Theft is getting taking something for nothing in exchange. Taxes buy civilization. Taxes are what society charges for the civilization it provides. As I said I don’t understand why you live in this country. There are plenty of places where they have little or no taxes and little or no government.

I would be in favor of making taxes voluntary, so long as Government can charge those who do not pay what the market will bear for access to services, like the road in front of their house, the airport, the interstate, the police force, the fire department, etc, etc.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 3:20 pm

“Theft is getting taking something for nothing in exchange.”

That definition is not correct.

Tom January 29, 2016 at 3:27 pm

Yep, poorly worded. But my premise still stands. Taxes are society’s charge for the civilization it provides. If you don’t like the price leave the society. I personally think the US is a damn good deal. I have lived in other places, with low taxes and little government. Would never go back.

As I said, I would be ok with making your taxes voluntary so long as those of us who are willing to pay taxes can charge those of you who do not pay taxes, what the market will bear for the services and infrastructure our taxes provide.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 3:30 pm

“But my premise still stands”

As does mine.

“As I said, I would be ok with making your taxes voluntary so long as those of us who are willing to pay taxes can charge those of you who do not pay taxes, what the market will bear for the services and infrastructure our taxes provide.”

It’s good to know you’re for voluntary exchange. That’s a good starting point.

Tom January 29, 2016 at 5:59 pm

You would not be happy with the price I would suggest the government charge for access to government property for those who don’t want to pay their share through taxes.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 6:59 pm

How would you know this Tom? If there was a free market and voluntary exchange allowed instead of involuntary, the market would determine the price and not you.

In fact, you touched on the “fatal conceit” noted by Hayek and expounded by Mises- which is that socialism has no way to determine what price levels of anything should be…which is why central planning always ultimately fails.

9" January 29, 2016 at 3:47 pm

Civilization is overrated and on its way out…

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:52 pm

The smart shysters wouldn’t have to disappear, they would simply write thousands of pages of legal language with a million loopholes so they wouldn’t be legally obligated to pay anything. They would make money until their clients got sick and found out the hard way.

Eventually word would spread and the money would stop flowing in. That’s when the shyster creates a new health insurance company and starts the whole scam over again.

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:23 pm

True it will have an impact. I could get a good, solid policy from a reliable company that’s regulated in a reliable state, and be fine. Or I could get a policy from Sal’s Health Care Emporium outside of Patterson NJ who called from a call center, and why my wife get’s ill, I find out we’re only covered for pap-smears and titty photos.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:25 pm

“I could get a policy from Sal’s Health Care Emporium outside of Patterson NJ who called from a call center, and why my wife get’s ill, I find out we’re only covered for pap-smears and titty photos.”

LOL! Dude, that’s funny as hell.

But seriously, who’s fault is it if you didn’t read Sal’s coverage contract?

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:27 pm

With you, but still, so let’s say we all read it. Then we all buy the good coverage, at today’s prices, and prices haven’t fallen at all.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:29 pm

Even Dem economists don’t deny demand and supply curves.

:)

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:30 pm

I’m not denying supply and demand curves. Just saying you’de have to have basically the same requirements (re: reserves, etc) across the board.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:32 pm

lol…I’m just making the point that when supply is increased with demand static, price drops…no matter what economist you subscribe to. (and his political viewpoints)

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:34 pm

Actually, it’s typically supply that stays static and demand moves unless there is limited elasticity.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:37 pm

“Actually, it’s typically supply that stay static ”

Huh? Are you denying that more insurance sellers in a given market, say SC, would result in more supply?

Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:47 pm

Doesn’t mean prices drop. If I don’t sell the policy, I don’t sell it. Ain’t like fruit or something.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:48 pm

I think you missed my point….supply is being restricted by government regulation.

Tom January 29, 2016 at 1:44 pm

It does not matter whose fault it is. The result is OUR problem, because when Sal will not pay for his wife he will take her to the emergency room. She will be treated. She will not be able to pay. The hospital will cover it and increase the cost to everyone else to pay for it.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:45 pm

“The result is OUR problem, ”

The point is…government has made it “out” problem…that can be easily solved.

Tom January 29, 2016 at 2:01 pm

Yes I know. Let them die. I heard Ron.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 2:02 pm

People die every day Tom. It doesn’t mean I’m happy about it, “like it”, or wouldn’t try to do something about it.

What I’m not willing to do is say forcing people to pay for other people dying is acceptable. It’s theft, pure and simple.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 2:18 pm

People don’t want to die. People want to make sure their physiological needs are met primarily, then ensure security for themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

Single payer allows people to be seen regardless of their ability to pay, and it shields everyone’s financial security as it wouldn’t bankrupt them for getting sent to the hospital for a week.

INUnivHoosier January 29, 2016 at 2:15 pm

If Sal’s wife gets treated under any plan, other people will pay for it.

Tom January 29, 2016 at 2:17 pm

But people will pay more if she is treated in an emergency room because the cost will be about double.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 2:19 pm

Plus it ties up the emergency room staff treating people for non-threatening injuries and illnesses, or even treating people who have nothing wrong with them at all.

INUnivHoosier January 29, 2016 at 2:37 pm

So, we’re assuming Sal and his wife are indigent insured?

INUnivHoosier January 29, 2016 at 2:43 pm

Wait, Sal was running the emporium. The man formerly known as Sal and his wife are the uninsured.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:47 pm

We just had a financial crisis recently because people bought homes they couldn’t afford that banks lended money to anyways. Most people can’t be 100% educated in what they are signing up for. No one reads their 100 or 1000 page contract of things that are and aren’t covered.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:47 pm

Yes, but I don’t think the rest of society should suffer for that.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:48 pm

The entire society as a whole already suffers from being dicked over by health insurance companies. I don’t think we should have to suffer from that.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:52 pm

“The entire society as a whole already suffers”

lol…no, it doesn’t.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:54 pm

Deny it all you want. I haven’t met someone yet who hasn’t had to go through some bullshit with their health insurance denying a claim.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:58 pm

“entire society”

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 2:00 pm

Health insurance companies have a net detrimental effect to health care, affecting every single person who seeks health care for themselves or their family. I wholeheartedly believe that.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 2:04 pm

I won’t disagree with that necessarily(I’m not sure), but I contained my arguments to health insurance for reason as it’s the current “paradigm”/box that everyone is in.

Let us not forget that large health insurers arose out of price controls under Nixon in trying to stem Fed created inflation.

Tazmaniac January 29, 2016 at 5:03 pm

Do the Health Insurance Companies run the Veterans Administration? By your statements it should be a beacon of how a healthcare system should be run. And reality is???

Tom January 29, 2016 at 5:08 pm

No, the Medicare system is the model. It has worked better than the VA system, and it could be even better.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:41 pm

Eliminating state lines will result in more competition? You’re just pulling our leg now right?

No state lines means all these Blue Cross Blue Shields, Aetnas, and whatever other companies all merge together into incredibly huge corporations. You complain about how DOI screws over competition in South Carolina, that’s because they are paid by big name insurance companies to do so. Gigantic corporate insurance companies will definitely spend their money to stifle competition.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:45 pm

You know, it’s funny…on one hand you acknowledge the crony capitalism, then on the other hand you deny supply/demand curves.

I really don’t know what say about it.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 1:55 pm

You don’t think Blue Cross Blue Shield America would do with the federal government what Blue Cross Blue Shield South Carolina does with the DOI?

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 1:59 pm

Not if it’s a free market…that’s my whole point. No Feds, no SCDOI, etc.

fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 2:02 pm

That’ll never happen. Even if it did, it would cause even more problems with scam insurance and fraud.

TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 2:04 pm

“That’ll never happen. ”

It might not(but no one knows), that doesn’t make me wrong.

RogueElephant January 30, 2016 at 9:42 am

It seems to have worked in auto ins. Tort reform has worked everywhere it has been tried right. Texas is a good example.

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Tom February 1, 2016 at 9:59 am

Tort reform has made no difference in the cost of health insurance anywhere. Why do you say it has worked? It was always a red herring. It has cut back on what people legitimately injured by doctor negligence receive. Malpractice payouts never made up more than 3% of the cost of health insurance. Maybe 10-20% of that amount could be attributed to abusive litigation. So no, it has not worked at all. When SC enacted tort reform, doctor malpractice premiums did not drop at all. In fact they went up the following year.
Auto insurance and health insurance are not even remotely comparable. If your auto insurance from a company and it cannot pay you when you wreck your car, that is not the same as you have no insurance when you are trying to get health care in an ICU at 10k a day.
If your car insurance co goes out of business no one is going to help you get a new car. If you insurance will not pay, society will not let you die (because most of us are not tea partiers). That means we all have to pay anyway. The state wants to make sure the people selling insurance in the state have adequate reserve requirements and coverage, so that the state or the people who pay for health care do not have to pick up the bill.

9" January 29, 2016 at 12:42 pm

Why should the United States keep up with the rest of the world? They already see us as a third-world country.

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RogueElephant January 29, 2016 at 12:44 pm

We have only become a third world country since Obummer.

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---- January 29, 2016 at 12:46 pm

You two should visit an actual third world country, you’d…….oh wait, you already live in SC. Nevermind.

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Tom January 29, 2016 at 1:28 pm

I should have limited my comments to health care options. I have been in the third world many times. We are not third world.

RogueElephant January 30, 2016 at 9:14 am

I spent a year in a true third world country. It is called Vietnam. Asshole.

Tom January 29, 2016 at 1:14 pm

Wrong we became a third world country under Bush and Dick.

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RogueElephant January 30, 2016 at 9:43 am

Under Bush and Cheney , we world leaders. Then Obummer gave it all away.

pogo January 29, 2016 at 1:30 pm

Tell em Rogue! They are in denial!

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Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:32 pm

Oh please, SC was third world before it was cool.

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Honesty is a Rare Commodity January 29, 2016 at 11:45 am

Lets be honest for a second. Regardless of if its Bernie, Hilary or an establishment republican, taxes are going to get raised.

Hilary and establishment republicans will lie all the way up to november telling you they wont, and then raise taxes on the middle class

Bernie atleast has the balls to be honest about raising taxes, and hes going to raise taxes on the super rich, not the middle class (which is pretty much a nice way to describe the lower class these days)

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Bernie 2016 January 29, 2016 at 11:51 am

Right on. Bernie isn’t afraid to lay his policies out and how he’ll go about accomplishing them.
When people actually hear Bernie with their own ears they like what he has to say. That’s why everyone is scared of him.

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Honesty is a Rare Commodity January 29, 2016 at 11:55 am

for the record, im not a bernie supporter. I have heard what he has to say, and if i was a more liberally minded person i think would surely support him over hilary. I dont support him, but i can understand him. I know what he stands for, and i respect him for his convictions. If i was planning on voting in the democratic primary i would vote for him, but not in the general

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fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:01 pm

Amen! Even Hillary would serve her masters before she would help the middle class, which is why Bernie is the only logical choice!

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Godwin's Honesty January 29, 2016 at 12:40 pm

Hitler was honest about his intentions for the Jews. He should have been looked upon favorably as well. He just got a bad rap.

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erneba January 29, 2016 at 11:53 am

As a side note to the current Democrat contest for the 2016 Democrat Presidential nominee.
Monica Lewinsky announced that she will be campaigning for Bernie.
She said past dealing with the Clinton’s left a bad taste in her mouth.

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guest January 29, 2016 at 11:54 am

Nice.

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5 January 29, 2016 at 11:55 am

Orange you glad he didn’t make a Trump joke?

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TroubleBaby January 29, 2016 at 12:33 pm

lol- that’s a good one.

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Rocky Verdad January 29, 2016 at 1:58 pm

DId it have anything to do with Whitewater?

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Mike at the Beach January 30, 2016 at 12:11 am

Eww…

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fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 11:54 am

We need single payer. What we would pay to insurance companies would go away so the higher taxes would be offset by that. No more being tied to whatever plan your employer wants. Lots more freedom. Go Bernie!

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da da January 29, 2016 at 12:02 pm

We got a single payer system.You American hating liberal faggots pay for your OWN shit.

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fl ? p January 29, 2016 at 12:24 pm

You are not a smart man. Most people have health insurance through their employer who pays for a portion of their coverage, then you pay what the health insurance doesn’t pay. The system is much more complex. I know you don’t have a job so you wouldn’t know what it is like to have employee benefits so I will forgive you. Go with God.

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idiotwind January 29, 2016 at 11:55 am

so you use clintons numbers to fact check sanders? nice work shithead.

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Tom January 29, 2016 at 1:05 pm

What the Republicans will not tell you is the biggest beneficiaries of Medicare for all would be Small Businesses. Right not small businesses like mine are struggling to provide some type of insurance plan for employees, and have been struggling for the last 15 years. Constantly increasing how much our employees have to pay to keep up with the increasing premiums. Which have been going up at about the same rate for the last 15 years.

We also have to insure ourselves and our families. I pay $1,200 a month, and that is with a 10k family deductible. If my wife and I and all my employees could go on Medicare, we would each be paying about 375 a month, and I could stop contributing to my employees health care. That would be a savings of about $5000 a year in premiums for me plus no deductible. I would probably save $15,000 to $20,000 a year.

What Will just confirmed for us is we could have insured everyone in the country for half of what Bush and Dick wasted on that stupid war in Iraq.

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terrytater January 29, 2016 at 3:58 pm

That Bernie guys a real whackadoodle

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twinkiedean January 29, 2016 at 4:00 pm

this black girl had to go to the emergency room because she had a bad headache. she was eating her icecream too fast

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Truthmonger January 30, 2016 at 5:19 pm

Creepy Uncle Bernie….. he reminds me of the guy in a van parked in front of an elementary school with a “free candy” sign. In this case, the “candy” is tuition and health care…. but oh, what he’ll do to you once you get in that van!!!!

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enpassant February 1, 2016 at 1:20 pm

The trillions missing from the Pentagon does not raise an eyebrow:https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=trillion+dollar+missing+pentagon

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