… LEAVE THEM UP (AS A LESSON)
|| By FITSNEWS || Earlier this week we covered a petition calling for the removal of the African-American monument from the grounds of the S.C. State House.
The logic behind that campaign? That the monument was part of the 2000 compromise that moved the Confederate flag from the dome of the state capitol building to the north lawn of the State House grounds.
With the flag now removed from that location …
At the time, we noted that “we’ve been thinking long and hard about the movement to remove various memorials from public grounds – and to rename various counties, cities, roads, bridges, etc.”
We also vowed to address the movement “extensively in a future post.”
Lucky you, here goes …
This is actually an interesting topic for us to consider because more than eight years ago we called for the removal of a monument honoring former S.C. governor Ben Tillman (a.k.a. “Pitchfork Ben”). And just two weeks ago, we noted the hypocrisy of Clemson University – a government-run college with an unconstitutional, archaic governing board – in opposing the Confederate flag even as it preserved Tillman’s landmark building on campus.
Tillman wasn’t just a racist, you see, he was a murderer. In fact this outspoken white supremacist and lynch law advocate was indicted (but never tried) for his role in the 1876 Hamburg Massacre – which saw six black freedmen shot to death by a racist mob.
Also, Tillman is the guy responsible for South Carolina’s antiquated 1895 Constitution – which continues to hold the Palmetto State back by perpetuating a dysfunctional government structure.
Such realities differ dramatically from the description of Tillman included on his statue …
(Click to enlarge)
(Pic provided)
Yeah …
Here’s the thing, though: As much as we’d love to personally haul Tillman’s monument down ourselves, we no longer believe it should be removed.
Wait … what?
That’s right. Nor do we think the Confederate Soldier Monument or the Daughters of the Confederacy Monument on the grounds of the S.C. State House should be removed. Nor the African-American Monument (which includes a memorial to black soldiers who fought for the Union Army), for that matter.
We also don’t believe cities, towns, counties, schools, etc. should be forced to change their names.
Why not?
A couple of reasons …
First, if we start down such a path … where does it end? Does the definition of “offense” ever stop expanding? Or do we permit it to perpetually escalate into elevated echelons of ridiculousness?
Obviously there was a clear and compelling case for the removal of the Confederate flag from the State House grounds – and we made that case (here, here, here and here). In fact we started making it before we knew the extent to which the perpetrator of last month’s horrific, racially motivated church shooting in Charleston, S.C. draped himself in the controversial banner.
And the flag’s removal – albeit executed in a calculated, less-than-dignified fashion – represented a real concession on the part of its supporters, many of whom have never harbored any animosity toward members of other races. Let alone murderous impulses.
Should these people have their noses rubbed in it after the fact? Told that their willingness to make a major concession on an emotionally charged issue somehow isn’t good enough?
Second, there’s a lot of talk emanating from the left about “teachable moments.” Well, we would humbly suggest that purging the south of all things “southern” would deny such moments to future generations – who should be allowed to find out on their own what a son of a bitch “Pitchfork Ben” was (and how his form of government continues to drive South Carolina’s economy into the ground).
Naturally we don’t support government funding for Confederate monuments or museums – but we don’t support government funding for any monuments or museums. And when it comes to naming roads, bridges, buildings, etc. – is there a point where we go “round the bend,” so to speak?
Hell, the City of Columbia, S.C. (where the Confederate flag was flying this time last week) is named for a guy who paraded the dismembered body parts of murdered Native Americans through villages as a means of disincentivizing rebellion. He also praised his brother for cutting out a woman’s tongue after she suggested he was of ignoble birth.
Oh, and he was a slave trader.
So … will South Carolina change the name of its state capital?
Of course not …
History matters. More than we know. Which is why people (us included) are always arguing about it. Like the present, we want to define it. Shape it. Make it more ours than someone else’s. But in the search for truth – and context – we should bear in mind real respect isn’t achieved by taking an eraser to the past, it’s achieving by determining the proper time, place and manner to show respect for our shared history.
89 comments
“….last month’s horrific, racially motivated church shooting…” that’s seven and I’m headed to the club.
But first, right on Will! We need to be reminded of the good and the bad (as I’ve mentioned several times, particularly when “we” called you out on the museum).
Colonel, our bet is back on. What is the current total?
I think seven.
TBZyee shinks sheven allshow.
Classic
Dang, bad timing, the folks at rehab just informed me I need a new liver
I didn’t believe@33
>b…..
?????SEEMOREINFFORMATION?????
the folks at rehab just informed me I need a new liver…
Quick!!
Call the folks at Planned Parenthood!!
Yeah, they are running the calculations of how many fetus livers per 750ml of Crown are required. I hope I will be able to handle my liquor, I don’t want anyone taunting me by calling me a baby.
With sincere and profound apologies to the rock group Cake…
“Your liver pays dearly for [FITSNEWS] “horrific, racially motivated” moments…
So rock on completely with Planned Parenthood components…”
We could use the Tillman statue as a sign of some progress, if it were adorn with a placard:
No Member in the State Legislature Today is Nearly as Big of a Scumbag as this Governor/Senator of Old
(Tillman was though personally more honest than probably 95% of the present vermin.)
Honesty of that sort paid considerably more then than now.
We won.
Not without Help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ApstMKNEMI
Republicans never learned that most important lesson: “don’t fuck the help”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxkSpYhdDo0
That was certainly interesting.
we no longer believe it should be removed.
——–
Maybe we need to set up these “monuments” of a bygone era as an international monument – a warning to future generations…. pictures of niggers with scars from the master’s whip, sleeping on the ground in shacks, eating gruel, working in the fields, taunted by local goobers… silhouettes against the moon of uppity Negras, hung by night riding thugs for Jesus… the mock trials convicting Negroes of convenient crimes, while ignoring burning of homes and property… laws fixing institutional racism into the very fabric of our nation… the human cost – the consequences of generational abuse.
Maybe add a sculpture like the sculpture by Nandor Glid at Dachau – “never again.”
“Y’all” could charge fifty cents admission to all the Yankees who have no idea what Southern Comfort really is, and use the money to fill a few potholes.
I’m sure the Germans aren’t ashamed of their “heritage” either – it’s no secret that if Hitler hadn’t fucked up with Russia, we might be speaking German… maybe the South *will* rise again.
There’s something about the Alamo that isn’t just right. :)
It already happens in Canada. They make everything occur in two languages. Apparently no one told the French that the English kicked their ass long ago.
A
contestant Jean, on “Who Wants to be a Millionaire?” had reached the
final plateau. If he answered the next question correctly, he would win
$1,000,000. If he answered incorrectly, he would pocket only the $25,000
milestone money.
And as he suspected the Million Dollar Question was no pushover. It was,
“Which of the following species of birds does not build its own nest, but
instead lays its eggs in the nests of other birds? Is it:
A) the condor
B) the buzzard
C) the cuckoo
D) the vulture”
Jean was on the spot. He did not know the answer. He had used up his 50/50
Lifeline and his Ask the Audience Lifeline.. All that remained was his
Phone-a-Friend Lifeline. He hoped he would not have to use it because . . . His
friend was, well, Jacques – not the sharpest nail in the bin. But he had no
alternative. He called Jacques and gave him the question and the four choices.
Jacques responded unhesitatingly: “Dat’s easy. Da answer is C: da
cuckoo.”
Jean had to make a decision and make it fast. He considered employing a reverse
strategy and giving any answer except the one that Jacques had given him. And
considering his friend was not the smartest French Canadian, that would seem to
be the logical thing to do. But his friend had responded with such confidence,
such certitude, that the contestant could not help but be convinced.
Crossing his fingers, Jacques said, “C: The cuckoo.”
“Is that your final answer?”
“Yes, that is my final answer.”
“That answer is Absolutely correct! You are now a millionaire!”
Three days later Jean hosted a party for
his family and friends, including Jacques, who had helped him win the million
dollars.
“Jacques, I just do not know how to thank you,” said Jean. “How did you happen to know the right
answer?”
“Oh, come on,” said Jacques. “Everybody knows dat da cuckoos
don’t build nests. Day live in da clocks.”
LOL – I also guessed cuckoos, but for totally different reasons ;)
Why not start from the beginning, Africans chasing and capturing other Africans?
Max E, I like it better when you are chowing down on negro cock. You are much quieter.
chowing down on negro cock.
——–
is that regional parlance?
It’s more an old family expression with unterMax.
Disaccreditation by imitation?
Why deny yourself the weapons of your enemy?
I can’t think of a good reason :)
This is weird. I can see “Mike at the Beach” and he hasn’t posted anything.
I have them tied up on CCTV… they can’t talk…
…now… we didn’t have to go through all this – all I want is my phone call!
I use a smart phone 90% of the time. Didn’t realize I could tell who is logged on to disqus when using a PC.
Taking Metts’ name of a building and boat landing was OK though..
Taking Metts’ name off the sheriff’s office was a mistake. He was a great champion of diversity and vibrancy by bringing in hard-working, upwardly mobile immigrants to Lexington to do jobs Republicans won’t do. For this he should be honored.
Tillman was indeed a boon to progress. But for his racist legislation, we would have embraced equality, diversity, and integration that we are now currently enjoying much sooner.
you and phatkunts circle jerks were giving them a bad name. yall can hit the rest stops for those shenanigans. abhorrent
Wasn’t the Mett’s boat landing already a rendezvous spot for you knobbers (nobbers? gnobbers?)?
soft cy you should know the answer to that . or has phat kunt been eatin stickybuns agane
I’ve heard it was like a regular Republican caucus you guys would have in the bushes down there.
I would never go near that place when the sun was low.
Too much mettschief.
Our new capital city of Haley.
Just testing.
I knew a guy named,Tillman.He was a human sump pump
Yeah, yeah, yeah… all your fag buddies are spectacular in their own fucked up way. Nobody wants to hear about it, but fags are like pilots… if you’re in a room for more than ten minutes and don’t acknowledge them for who they are they’ll come up and tell you.
A least they wear wings on their lapels to give you a hint, the pilots that is.
Let me understand this history lesson from Folks. Tillman wrote the 1895 constitution all by himself with no input from anyone. Then Tillman adopted it as official all by himself. Did I understand Folks correctly?
Tillman managed to get the constitutional referendum on the ballot through vote fraud. He chaired the committee that wrote the portion dealing with the rules around who could vote. His expressed desire was to ensure blacks could not vote.
Post the Revolutionary War we’ve had five different constitutions. The 1895 Constitution was the last and though highly modified it is still in place.
I’m kin to descendants of Tillman. Note that I did not say I’m a descendant myself. He was a beastly human being. As bad as they come. It’s difficult for me to get over the desire to see that statue at the State House gone forever.
However, you make a good point. Where does it end?
I’ll have to mull this one for a good long while.
I would have no problem having an accurate description of ben Tillman posted at the monument. The buildings should be renamed unless they also find a way to point out what a terrible human being he is.
What troubles me is the NAACP’s attempt to do away with Stone Mtn. Stone Mtn. is an invaluable source of history. Nothing there promotes racism.
My only disagreement with you here, is that we are not presenting history. We are presenting propaganda. If we want our history both good and bad displayed, then so be it; But don’t display the bad and pretend its the good. Put Mr. Tillman’s quotes on the base of his statue. That is fair, and presents real history, good and bad. Likewise his quotes should be on Tillman Hall in both Clemson and Rock Hill. .
I suspect 98% of the state has no idea who Tillman is and what he did. But the race baiting left must see their wishes though to the end…capitulation of all thought different from theirs. They must grind any diversity from their hated foes, conservative (types).
Find me a group of people, a race or creed or nationality that does not have plenty to hide and I will rip the things down myself. But for craps sake, are their not better things do in this world that talk about this crap?
Serious people have meaning in their life and this BS means nothing.
Yeah, what’s one more statue of a wicked white man on the grounds of a statehouse steeped in a century-plus of racist evil? It has plenty of company: both statues and ghosts.
Please name me the statehouse that your comment does NOT apply to including ethnic and religious.
So what?
So where does your “cleansing” end?
Give it up CNSYD. You’re on the wrong side of history, as always.
Face you are out to lunch as usual. Ban every monument, building name, etc. named for anyone who has ever uttered an unkind word to another person based on race, color, ethnicity, religion, etc. and how many would be left?
Nah, just those who kill, like Tillman.
So all soldiers and politicians fit your criteria?
More irrelevant blather. Ever heard of murder during wartime? Does the name Thomas Calley ring a bell? You see, that was murder at Mai Lai. In combat, massacring unarmed civilians is considered bad. Fighting and helping to raise the flag at Iwo Jima. That was considered good.
So Hiroshima was good. Fire bombing of London and Berlin was good. The Bataan Death March was good. How long a list do you have face?
Actually, that is your list. I understand logic. You do not.
Were unarmed civilians “massacred” in the fire bombing of Berlin? Yes or no? Are you OK with it because it was “legal” because it was done under orders from those in charge? Yes or no? If you are not OK with it, are Churchill and Roosevelt, by your “logic” war criminals?
I would guess civilians were killed as part of military operations. If Roosevelt or Churchill fire bombed civilians with no military objective, yes, they would be war criminals, like Calley.
Your logic is that of someone off their meds.
In combat, massacring unarmed civilians is considered bad. Fighting and helping to raise the flag at Iwo Jima. That was considered good.
War criminal…or not?
Gen. Curtis LeMay
Gen. W. T. Sherman
Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering
“Bomber” Harris
Well now you’ve done it. Our money is going to have Rocky and Bullwinkle on it. I hope your happy, HeeHee.
Even cleaning just a bit of shit off the walls of the rest stop bathroom will make a difference. In S.C.’s case…there is a lot of cleaning to be done.
seen a lot of shit on rest stop bathrooms have you polesmoker
phat kunt needs a big douche
Pretty sure you would have seen my pole poking through that hole in the stall you were in…or was that 9″
9 MM peter AKA phatkunt . LMAO
Sometimes the mess is so great you might as well just tear it down and start over. Sherman gave us that opportunity and we still blew it.
I graduated from Clemson (can’t you discern that from my erudite musings in this forum), but take down all things Tillman I say. Change the names remove the plaques get rid of the statues of any and all Confederates and/or sympathizers.
Pretty reasonable I would presume in this day and age…or do we still want to honor a man who said (and I quote):
“It had been the settled purpose of the leading white men of Edgefield
to seize upon the first opportunity that the negroes might offer them to
provide a riot and teach the negroes a lesson: as it was generally
believed that nothing but bloodshed and a good deal of it could answer
the purpose of redeeming the state from negro and carpetbag rule.”
Or this gem:
“We have done our level best [to prevent blacks from voting]…we have
scratched our heads to find out how we could eliminate the last one of
them. We stuffed ballot boxes. We shot them. We are not ashamed of it.”
Or even this one:
In 1906, after Booker T. Washington dined in the White House with
President Theodore Roosevelt, Tillman said, “The action of President
Roosevelt in entertaining that nigger will necessitate our killing a
thousand niggers in the South before they learn their place again.”
Or this one as well:
“There is only one crime that warrants lynching, and Governor that I am,
I would lead a mob to lynch a negro that ravishes a white woman. I do
justify lynching for rape, and before Almighty God, I am not ashamed of
it.”
Is this really what Clemson wants to perpetuate?
Large placards with these quotes should be placed prominently at the statue and buildings. Then see who wants to change the names and move the statue to Edgefield County, that once proud sewer of hate.
Agreed, insistence on his quotes being associated with his name will end the debate on whether to keep the statue and his name on College Buildings. Was he instrumental in the building of Clemson and Winthrop? Yes. Is that enough to whitewash his other acts? No. He must be presented accurately.
Holy shit, that guy was a flaming racist douchenozzle.
The biggest indictment of CU in this case is not the actual name of the Hall, but the fact that the university waited decades and THEN, knowing who Tillman was (or being impossibly ignorant of who he was), dedicated the building so that Tillman would not be forgotten!
When was the statue placed on the statehouse grounds? When was the building at Winthrop named for Tillman? Would Clemson and Winthrop have existed had Tillman not led the fight against the “effete dandies” at South Carolina College? Maybe that played into the decisions. I don’t know. Do you have copies of the records that state why or are you just talking out your ass as usual?
Do you EVER make a relevant point on anything? Are you really this stupid?
Sorry if history offends your prejudiced thesis. You have a hard on for Clemson and just like Folks, don’t try to hide it.
Actually, I like Clemson a great deal. A few bad apples and some ignorant others really don’t carry much weight, all things considered.
Highly understandable why SC can’t cope with ending the myths of the Civil War.
From a SC writer no less.
http://www.salon.com/2015/07/15/lies_i_learned_as_a_southerner_racism_the_confederate_flag_and_why_so_many_white_southerners_revere_a_symbol_of_hatred/
Step 1: Get a map. Step 2: Note that Mobile, AL is not in SC. Step 3: Get a copy of “When in the Course of Human Events” by Charles Adams and learn the actual causes of the war not the peripheral ones.
Clearly you did not read the entire article. Here’s a radical thought: Begin at the beginning!
Salon is all I needed to see so I don’t waste my time. Even Hitchens learned they only print their version of the truth. Just a comic book for nerdy Libs.
Charles Adams aside, we don’t really need an historian to tell us why South Carolina decided to secede from the Union. We have their own words, written at the time of the secession and adopted by the SC Legislature. You can find SC’s Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union here
http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/
“A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States
north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high
office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes
are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of
the common Government, because he has declared that that “Government
cannot endure permanently half slave, half free,” and that the public
mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate
extinction.
This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has
been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons
who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens;
and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to
the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.”
The Confederacy had nothing to do with slavery!
It is impossible to talk about race. If you do you will be branded either a black lover or black hater. Of those that are dumb enough to engage in the conversation it is clear that they are equally hateful and divisive regardless of their point of view.
Both sides are repulsive, reflexive and are generally arrogant pricks that don’t really care about blacks but instead are solely focused on their own insecurities and their internal deficiencies. They project those issues onto everyone involved, hence their inability to understand what is being said or what is happening.
The real sickness is the vile nature of those involved in the debate. They are some of the worst people on the planet.
Fortunately, talk’s cheap. So the problem matters less. Even if rational, the general talk would come to nothing.
Specific problems have to be dealt with by a much more select, responsible, and isolated set of persons. We don’t let the know-nothing passengers onto the bridge to offer their opinions on ship handling. Not ideal in a supposed democracy, but about all that works.
Still longing for the old flag? Move to Rednexington where they’re flying the Stars and Bars proudly in Town Hall (and in their council chambers) as part of its Town Seal!
Only if you want to move out of Chocolate City, SC.