EXCEPT FOR THE GOVERNMENT, OF COURSE …
U.S. Rep. Mike Honda – a Democrat from California – has introduced legislation that would ban Americans from owning high-performance body armor.
Honda’s bill – dubbed the “Responsible Body Armor Possession Act” – would make it illegal for U.S. citizens to own helmets, shields, vests that provide the highest level of penetration resistance.
Those would be reserved for the government …
“We don’t need to have individuals owning these things and going around with a higher degree of protection against law enforcement,” Honda told U.S. News and World Report . “I’ve seen a trend that there’s more and more body armor being used, and they’re usually used by folks who want to do harm.”
Really, dude? You’ve seen a trend?
Because we’ve seen a trend, too … one involving government at all levels trying to dumb people down, steal their money, take their liberties, take their guns – and now take away their ability to protect themselves.
Needless to say we oppose this nonsense. And while we agree with Honda that he’s not raising a “Second Amendment issue,” he is raising a liberty issue. One with potentially frightening ramifications for the future of the country.
119 comments
Body Armor is a liberal plot to weaken the power of guns.
— Except for me, of course
——-
Michael Makoto “Mike” Honda (Japanese: ???; born June 27, 1941) serves as the U.S. Representative for California’s 17th congressional district, known as Silicon Valley, which is the only Asian American-majority district in the continental United States. The district encompasses all or part of the cities of Cupertino, Fremont, Milpitas, Newark, Santa Clara, San Jose, and Sunnyvale. He is a member of the Democratic Party and has been serving in Congress since 2001.
It’s a disturbing trend… some liberals are even targeting bullets with titanium cores, and plasma penetrators.
Just part of the orchestration to weaken our citizens to a state of being defenseless. The little cockroaches who support the big cockroaches are too stupid to understand that they are being used and will be the first victims.
I hope they don’t use guns!
Just go back to tungsten.
Is there some way to reclaim tungsten from lightbulbs for that use? The melting point of really hard metals is so hard to achieve… is there some hillbilly way to make some of that hardened ammo that can penetrate 1/4″ of steel plate at 300 yards?
The inner glacial glass tube of HID lamps has stuff that could be mixed with lead to shorten the length of the blood trail.
I wonder if tungsten welding tips embedded lengthwise in lead and inside a steel jacket would act essentially the same as German armor-piercing machine-gun ammunition from WWII? A friend had a surplus 7.65 Mauser hunting rifle and we “happened” into 500 rounds of ball ammo for use in target shooting. It turned out to be this type of armor-piercing round. It would shoot through a lot of steel, but the ammo must have been heavily powdered too, as it kicked like a Prussian Army mule and about knocked you over. We never did shoot too much of it as we knew it would wash out the barrel.
“We never did shoot too much of it as we knew it would wash out the barrel.”
There’s always trade offs.
The “tipped” or penetrator ammo won’t harm the barrel at all as the barrel only contacts the lead wrapping of the hardened core. Tracer ammo is damaging though.
Would that be the same for his hardened ball ammo?
I’m just relatively familiar with guns & ammo, but pretty familiar with manufacturing, metallurgy of certain grades of steel & machining.
How would I get a controlled oven temp of 3000 degrees Fahrenheit in the garage?
lol….don’t know on that one…the one I work with has an upper limit of 2250F.
Thing is, I could probably work around most property issues with convention steels if given the goals and some control over design parameters.
5.56 mm, Armor Piercing, M995 (United States): 5.56×45mm 52-grain AP cartridge with a tungsten core. [black tip]
http://kitup.military.com/2011/05/data-dump-army-black-tip-ammo.html
http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/ammunition/military-ammunition-and-why-green-tip-m855-is-not-armor-piercing/
LMAO! Only the gubmint could define AP this way:
“a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which
is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron,
brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; ”
The M855 penetratros 3/8″ plate, yet still isn’t AP….lol…they must be using legal loopholes for some reason(Geneva?).
Anyway, good links, ty.
Buy a ceramics kiln.
I don’t know of any ceramic kilns that get up there…but melting was never my thing. You’re really into pouring/mills at that point.
For “penetrator type” ammo you’re absolutely correct.
Well, I don’tI disagree if using exotics…but that was my point above. I could do penetrator without all that…it’s just not the best way to do production quantities.
In theory, you could just glue a tungsten bb into the cavity of a lead nosed hollow point. Me, I’ll stick with Winchester Silvertips.
Are silvertips AP? Again, I’ve just got rudimentary ammo knowledge…
I assumed the reason everyone was blathering on about AP was because they were restricted….I probably should have asked that to start and just let everyone else talk…lol
No, silvertips are segmented, full jacketed, hollow points. The segmenting causes a uniform expansion and make the energy transfer from the bullet to the target very effective dramatically increasing the wound channel. I’ve killed hogs and deer with them in .357 with no problems.
So even if it didn’t penetrate it just bruises the armor wearer to death? Shockwaves through the body, etc. ?
Two hits from a .357 in normal soft body armor will likely take your assailant out of the fight if only temporarily, one in the brain pan ensures that they are permanently out of the fight. Military grade armor adds a plate to distribute the shock and all bets are off on whether a body hit will matter “in the fight”. The head/neck/face is notoriously difficult to armor and a well aimed .22 will kill you just as dead as a .44 magnum.
Heck, using Soft Sigh’s approach above you could simply drill the back side and use tungsten rod….it’s not even that expensive:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#high-density-tungsten/=t7ikdo
“Special” ammo is relatively easy to create, the issue is accuracy, getting the balance right is tough. Then there’s that small problem of explaining to the judge and jury why your bullets were made from platinum, dipped in selenium and designed to fragment in such a manner as to make all the bits impossible to find…
lol….oh, I never meant to pretend any of it was “legal”…I don’t even know what is or isn’t legal because in the big picture I don’t have any need…I’m just saying that any average Joe like myself that has a will can surely find a way.
For that matter, is it possible that I’m breaking the law by even discussing it? Do you know?
This type of theoretical discussion is legal but might be used to prove your “intent” if you were to actually go through with it and then shoot someone.
Well that’s good to know. I can’t keep track of what is/isn’t legal anymore…I think you’d need an attorney to follow you around all day to not break a law anymore.
Rico laws make talking about a felony a felony… which is why it would be an interesting world if abortion was murder.
I’d think you could get the balance right by spinning the round as it cooled. The yaw would be the hardest thing to work out, but according to the sources I’ve seen, yaw doesn’t always affect accuracy.
I’ve machined precision balanced small diameter parts purely by design(verified after)…it’s easy to do if you work to tight tolerances.
If you make it super round and add features to the same accuracy, you can simply design the balance in and not even worry.
using angular momentum to center a wire within molten lead sounds mildly amusing to me now, considering the ease at which a drill press could be used to machine a hole in an already existing round, and then screwing a piece of tungsten or titanium wire into it.
Now, I wonder… if that wire were to have a sharpened point, it may pierce layers of kevlar, but would it make it through the ceramic used in body armor?
The NSA wants to know. :)
Heck, you just drill/ream it, then press fit the tungsten rod into it.
It’d make a nasty little round.
On a cursory google I found government has been messing around with tungsten for some time, but it looks like mostly tank/large round applications and it’s the “eco” alternative to DU…lol…funny.
The G-men probably already have something that fits their needs in rifle/gun rounds(per your link), but for those guys that can do their own loads and what not it’s an easy solution for AP.
Looks like that’s the ticket! 50 bucks for 8″ of tungsten.. that would make a shit load of AP.
We worried about the steel jacket and the higher velocity.
We had tracer ammo for a .303 jungle carbine (Enfield?).
We worried about the steel jacket and the higher velocity.
——
Couldn’t you coat it with plastic?
The normal way to deal with the problem is to use gas check rings made of less to seal the gas behind the projectile and take the rifling. The only thing that touches the barrel is the lead.
I remembered later that the bullets were boat-tailed.
I can easily have forgotten that they had a brass or lead “sliding” ring to engage the rifling and reduce wear on the barrel. But that may not have been that big of a deal for machine guns with easily changed barrels.
A lot of post-WWII Mauser ammo was Israeli so it may have even been theirs, though I remember the Hebrew characters just on 7.92 ammo.
Steel jackets ammo is different, it will eventual damage the bore.
I guess you put that with the other stuff in that old rat hive behind the electrical conduit.
It does look like all you need is a piece of 4 gauge tungsten or titanium wire.
You can flame harden carbon steels pretty cheaply, no oven necessary.
Yeah, but if I had, for instance, a bunch of tungsten, or titanium salvaged from several sources, how would I make a casting?
Tungsten melts at something like 6,000 degrees Fahrenheit so no, you probably don’t have the resources really available.
Got my F’s and C’s confused.
I just wouldn’t do it that way. If I was going to do it low budget and production quantities/labor wasn’t an issue (hillbilly way, using your parlance), I’d either turn a tip oversize, maybe with a cavity on the backside to pour lead into, flame harden it…grind it after for dimensional accuracy then pour the lead in…
But obviously, there’s lots of ways to skin that cat rather than moving towards exotics.
“I’d either”
I forgot the “either”, which is if I’m one step above hillbilly I turn some dimensional stable HT’able alloy and pop it in an oven if I can hold the tolerance needed despite heat treat.
If it were a libertarian world, we wouldn’t need polonium as we wouldn’t be under a jack-booted government hellbent on subverting us.
Do you think the jackboots wouldn’t need killing in the libertarian world?
There wouldn’t be any to kill.
How do you know that?
Libertarians support the rights of others.
Unless they’re corrupt or selfish.
Tungsten carbide seems like the right metal for AP rounds.
I’ll bet there is tool-metal stock of the right sizes.
Not thick wire?
Down here on the VERANDAH
TBG and his ANACONDA*
Don’t want none of that HONDA
Right glad he’s over YONDA
*Damn right it’s a Sir Mix-A-Lot reference.
Right glad he’s over YONDA
——
…and
Shameka
Keisha
Tara
Shonda
Sabrina
Crysta
Daronda
Theresa
Felicia
Tenisha
Sha’von
Monica
Monique
Christina
Yolanda
Petey Pablo, FTW!
Monique must be ‘unique’ because you put her name in your date book with the ‘a’s. Pretty slick listing them by the last letter in their name!
typo… it’s Moniquea
— very clever system
scooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre!
NOT TO WORRY.
The NRA will vigorously protect the right to develop and sell new generations of “cop-killer” bullets that will neutralize any regulated differences in armor protection.
“DU for ME* and YOU!!”
*especially
Why should just the military get those great depleted-uranium rounds? It’s not as if you could make an A-bomb with them (though you could boost an H-bomb had you one around).
Yeah, DU ammo in 30mm just what every”cop killer” wants, 30mm ammo and the Apache helicopter gun system needed to use it…
and one thing a lot of people forget about body armor is the velocity issue and pressure issue. e.g., most wont stop a knife from being stabbed through it, nor keep a much, much slower object, say a smart car going 45 mph from killing you. lastly, unlike the movies, people very – very rarely laugh off a .357 round because it hit them in the stomach because they had on kevlar. it still is often excrutiatingly painful/can cause death, and often requires medical treatment. this person who wrote and introduced this law probably read ALMOST an entire article (or abstract) on the matter – adopted a position, and went from there to the congressional hopper to drop in this useless, pointless, and foolish legislative proposal.
I saw (what I think I was told was) ceramic armor on Marines in Columbia training for urban warfare. It was platy I think I recall. Is that armor publicly available I wonder?
Really available: http://www.bulletproofme.com/Body_Armor_Complete_Products_LIST.shtml
You somehow think that DU couldn’t be used even in a .17 caliber? Quaint.
I guess if you had access to your own supply of uranium, a machine shop to mill it and some way to keep from dying of cancer from being around it while it was being milled you could in fact make it in any caliber you want. The reality is that the manufacturing process is so complex that nobody could afford it but the U.S. Gubamint.
Nonsense. There used to be a lot of it around in civilian use. From racing sailboat keel weights to commercial aircraft counterweights (in wings I believe). I’ve seen and held 10-lb slabs of it in labs as exhibits with no special protections. A lot used to be processed at Carolina Metals (I think the name was) here in SC. A glance at an aerial emitted-gamma survey (used for entirely unrelated purposes, probably mineral exploration but I forget) shows a bright spot at their location, from all the old used discarded crucibles I am told. Locked gates, sure, but no special shielding. DU is not that dangerous to be around (until dust or vapor).
… DU is not that dangerous to be around (until dust or vapor). trip, you’re right, not dangerous until you’re around it in a dust or vapor state, like that created when machining it. Yes, encapsulated DU has been used in a variety of applications but the properties that make it effective don’t translate to smaller calibers.
You machine it wet with oil or water, if necessary, but in proper machining it comes off in strips or flakes, not dust, in any event. The bullets are probably cast, even easier.
KE increases as V^2 no matter what the caliber, and higher density always helps. The vaporization and flammability factor is probably of little consequence against body armor, but maybe not, depending on the weapon. Well, the burning would be smothered typically, but possibly it would be white-hot vapor and not a bullet that made it through the armor.
(BTW: Did any of you know that live DU rounds were apparently fired by mistake by an A-10 at the Manchester target range a decade or two ago.)
You’re math only works if you can get the velocity you’re after, a heavier bullet inherently moves slower given the same propellant charge, increasing the charge affects ballistics and accuracy adversely. DU requires a sabot or a gas ring to work effectively because of its characteristics.
Not surprised, they accidentally dropped a nuke outside of Florence near Mars Bluff in 1958.
some way to keep from dying of cancer from being around it while it was being milled
——-
OMG! another one!
Every Communist must grasp the truth: Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. – Me
This liberal is an idiot. It will never pass. Americans have a Constitutional right to protect themselves. Congress has such a low approval rating already, it is things like this that will push Americans to taking baseball bats to their knee caps.
Americans have a Constitutional right to protect themselves.
Americans have a Constitutional right to keep and bear arms. Bullet-proof vests aren’t arms. I agree it fits in with the spirit of the amendment, and the idea of militias, but the amendment itself is too specific to include armor.
Liberal Smirks. Typical rant of a wacko. Try reading corpus juris secundum and US Supreme Ct Reports; that is, if you can comprehend big words.
Americans have a Constitutional right to keep and bear arms. Bullet-proof vests aren’t arms. I agree it fits in with the spirit of the amendment, and the idea of militias, but the amendment itself is too specific to include armor.
Correct.
The question is where Congress gets the authority to pass such a law.
Interstate commerce?
General welfare?
I have to disagree, Smirks. Just like the bogus argument about the 2nd Amendment not protecting our right to own ammunition, so goes this argument. I doubt you would have fared well in convincing a Roman, Spartan, (or like culture), soldier that his shield was not an integral part of his armament, along with is sword or spear. While it may not be used much for offensive purposes, it would definitely be part of his armament.
Actually “arms” are ANY device which can be used in defense, not just a device for offense.
And, everyone should have their own personal tank sitting in the front yard.
Could not agree more.
Sure you could. Your stupidity knows no boundaries!
Why would a citizen owning body armor be a threat our society and our Republic? It is a defensive mechanism, not offensive. One of first successful and most prolific makers of body armor in the US was started by a guy who was delivered pizzas for a living. He realized the dangers in that job in a metropolitan area and made his own vests, eventually parlaying that into what was known as “Second Chance”, a company which had a very impressive list of “saves”, most of whom were law enforcement officers.
Back in the early 90s, I had a black guy dressed in a black trench coat come in the store I was working at and ask about a certain address. I told the guy nobody goes there after dark without a death wish. That is when I found out about the wild world of high risk auto repo work. The dudes coat was body armor and his truck was the stay in the cab type, not prevalent back then, and armored as well, all pretty high tech for back then.
He sounds like he was ready for whatever may happen, Taz! Obviously, he was no dummy.
Said a colostomy bag with ears.
WOW You would think that sometime we would run out of stupid people. But they just keep coming. There must be a liberal factory somewhere that makes them.
Yeh you can say that again!
The premise of your comment appears to be that only liberals are stupid. May I direct your attention to:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/lists/50-dumbest-things-right-wingers-said-in-2013-20131204
Funny read. But they pale in comparison to ” If you like your Dr. , you can keep your Dr. and don’t forget “What difference dose it make “.
Really? Rollingstone is now a reputable media outlet?
To be more accurate, he’s looking to ban higher grade body armor.
Honda’s “Responsible Body Armor Possession Act,” introduced July 31, would prohibit civilians from buying or owning armor – including vests, shields, helmets and other items – rated Type III or higher on the National Institute of Justice’s penetration resistance scale.
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/08/08/congressman-guns-for-high-performance-body-armor-ban
It looks like a misguided attempt to prevent some crazed nut from strapping on military-grade body armor and going Rambo on a mall or something. If someone were really armored up that much, just snipe him where he isn’t armored, or use gas to disable him, or a flashbang, or something else SWAT teams will likely have.
That being said, when he says it “isn’t a Second Amendment issue,” he’s, well… exactly right. That doesn’t mean we should absolutely do it, though.
Funny, what idiot politcians cant understand is the simple laws of PHYSICS!
The body armor may prevent penetration from certain rounds, but it does not eliminate blunt force trauma.
Which means center mass hits WILL take down an IDIOT untrained or UNABLE to generate the willpower to endure such impacts, then as he is gasping for breath from the broken ribs and bleeding internal injuries, you walk up and head shoot the SOB!
Democrats/liberals think that passing a law will prevent bad guys from getting body armor. Silly. If gun laws in the US ever prevented criminals from getting guns, they might have a point.
Wow, banning body armor for citizens will have “potentially frightening ramifications for the future of the country”. If that’s true then we had better look seriously into allowing citizens to own machine guns, grenades, and maybe even Stinger missiles. Get those NRA subscriptions renewed right now. The future of the country is at stake.
Yeah, just frightening how those law abiding citizens whom anit gunterds jave never proven to be the risk they claim can be called criminals and convicted without a trial eh!
Another swing and a miss. You’re batting a perfect .000 so far!
I’ve got a compromise. Only people who pass a criminal background check are allowed to buy body armor. That way T-Rav would be prevented from having it and he could renounce his citizenship again.
If I want bullet proof glass in the windows of my house … If I want bullet proof lining inside the walls of that house …. I have a right. There is no law that says I CAN NOT protect myself. And believe me when I say, these lawless sociopaths in Congress try to make a law saying I and the rest of the nation can not, they might need body bags because they will piss off tens of millions of Americans even more than they already have.
BRAVO….BRAVO…..
Excellent use of media Psyops to actually give props to corporations that actually paid your campaign coffers..!!
This guy will be in office a long time………
Women will support a ban on body armor. At least until Victoria’s Secret comes out with there own version.
Yeah….Some people even make book bags made of Kevlar to protect their kids in these inner city war zones we call public schools…imagine that! How dare they!!
I got a kevlar Messenger wallet, but damn wallet I’ve ever had. I used to go through 1 wallet every year or so….not anymore. I’ve had this one 3 years now.
but at the end of the day, there’s really no way to spin this as anything other than a measure to protect government actors from the citizens- no matter how well intended, this always strikes me as disconcerting.
Just guarantees head shots on the criminals/government hoodlums from now on!
“Congressman wants to ban body armor”…so the gang bangers and Timothy McVeigh wannabe militia types can’t get it?
We should ban automobiles and Ryder trucks so those type cannot get them, too.
But don’t ban big ass rims or baggy pants, it really has improved the chances of LE catching them in pursuit. Even the gold grills add a little weight, or so I hear down at the Krispy Kreme.
No, so the armed hood rats don’t kill folks in the suburbs.
What about a thin-walled hollow tough-plastic bullet filled with dense liquid mercury and coated with Teflon to help attain a high velocity? I wonder what that would do? I’ll bet someone has tried it.
Also, while we ponder domestic mayhem, what would forensics make of a gun-murder using a frozen blood bullet?
they tried it – on the TV show Castle.
Dang, a lot of smart people on this post
Dang, a lot of smart people on this post
This dude’s name is “Honda?” Can you ride him longer than a Lincoln, or is he the ugliest model on the lot? Maybe he’s always trying to copy a German but always failing..
Why of course they would be reserved for the government.
Why, the government is special.
The government is benevolent.
The government never engages in nefarious ways.
[/sarcasm]