DON’T RAISE IT … ABOLISH IT
In the comments section of a recent post we were challenged to address the minimum wage issue.
We’ve already done that, but whatever … we’ll re-address.
We do not support raising the minimum wage. First and foremost government has no business defining such a standard in the free market – or compelling its enforcement. Wages should be based on what the market will bear – anything else is socialism.
Also, raising the minimum wage – a shameless sop to labor unions – isn’t going to accomplish what U.S. President Barack Obama claims it will.
“Minimum wage increases fail to alleviate net poverty even among vulnerable populations that minimum wage advocates wish to help,” San Diego State economist Joseph J. Sabia wrote for The Cato Institute last month.
Not only that, Sabia described hiking the minimum wage as an “antiquated anti-poverty tool” – one that would “deter employment.”
“In the presence of competitive low-skilled labor markets, a government-mandated minimum wage set above the market wage will raise the cost of low-skilled labor to firms, creating an incentive for firms to cut jobs or reduce employees’ hours of work,” he writes.
We concur …
Raising the minimum wage will not do what it’s proponents claim it will do … and even if it did, it’s a violation of everything this country claims to stand for.
Oh … and as for high levels of “public support” for a minimum wage hike, a December 2013 Reason-Rupe poll is instructive. According to the poll, 72 percent of Americans support raising the minimum wage from $7.25 to $10.10 – compared to only 26 who oppose. However, when respondents are asked whether they support a wage hike that might cause “some employers to lay off workers or hire fewer workers,” 57 percent oppose the wage hike and only 38 percent support it.
“If Americans become convinced that raising the minimum wage will harm employment, they will push back on the initial premise and the proposal to raise the wage,” Reason‘s Emily Ekins noted.
In other words Obama is betting America is dumb enough not to do the math on this wage hike …
97 comments
I agree wholeheartedly. Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams have written extensively on this issue and provide empirical evidence to back up their positions, however they are considered by many on the left as Uncle Toms so their opinions and evidence don’t count. So things continue to get worse for those that politicians claim to be trying to help the most. As far as public support, I imagine most everyone would support a $20 per hour minimum wage but wouldn’t want to pay the consequences of such folly, so they are but fair weather friends at best.
Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams are Uncle Toms.
As long as the disappearing middle class and the poor make enough to buy pitchforks and torches everything will be a-okay…
If you’re betting on the government to force your employer to give you a raise, you’ve already lost.
Right On! If a worker wants to increase his or her income they need to assess their strengths and weaknesses and determine how they need to improve to become more valuable to the marketplace.
Forcing investors, who hire, to pay more, just adds to the unemployment rate…
Obama has already cost millions of jobs..and so many jobs have been cut in two to avoid the exorbitant Obamacare tax…
When will this filthy Monster stop punishing the American people? He said he wanted revenge: When is enough suffering aimed at us, enough???..How much hatred can one man, who has been handed so much himself, harbor???
Forcing investors, who hire, to pay more, just adds to the unemployment rate…
Letting them pay less ends up costing the rest of us for their negligence in properly compensating their employees, but what does that matter to a shill like you?
You and Obama don’t have the right to LET anyone pay anything…You Hitler-like, fascist Nazi…
Obama has never EARNED a penny on his own sweat…for him to FORCE EARNERS to pay what he demands is something only ignorant son of a b!**ches like you would fall for…and I just don’t think a majority are as stupid as you…,
You must really love Bachmann. She stiffs her staffers AND thinks that abolishing the minimum wage would solve unemployment! Also, the both of you are likely on the same low end of the intelligence spectrum, somewhere between pond scum and Louie Gohmert.
The bottom line: Obama is a F*#K-UP…There is no way to lie about that or make excuses….Facts are Facts…Data is Data…
From Obamacare and Arab Spring to Unemployment and Green Energy, he has been WRONG on everything….
The fact that you hate, based on your ignorance and political mythology, has nothing to do w/ the Total Disaster of Obama, and the liberal policies that have been enacted and failed…
To be fair, McDonalds and Wal-Mart should not be responsible for paying a wage that can support a family. The wage they pay may not be enough to defer all government assistance, but at least those workers are receiving someting. And something is better than nothing, which means there is less of a shortfall that taxpayers have to make up.
You would be hard pressed to live off of $8/hour being single. That kind of pay may be reasonable for someone who still lives with their parents, or in a dorm paid via other funds (parents, scholarship, loans), but that doesn’t cut the mustard for people who have to pay rent, utilities, transportation, etc.
Something is indeed more than nothing, but I’d pose two points to that:
1) When “something” isn’t enough, and we cover the rest, but that company rakes in billions in profits at the end of every year, are they not shoveling their costs onto us, and thus using taxpayer dollars to increase their own profits? And those profits only go to benefit their shareholders, not to the actual employees themselves, who will perpetually be stuck on welfare. Those profits are stolen from the employees they shaft, and the taxpayers who make up the difference.
2) A lot of these people work, and work hard, wanting to be independent, but the same party that tells them they don’t need more pay is the same party that tells them they are good-for-nothing leechers/moochers/takers that are lazy, don’t work, and just want to rely on government for even thinking of receiving welfare. I’ve known plenty of near-minimum wage earners who work 60+ hour work weeks just to pay the bills, and that’s with assistance. They don’t seem lazy to me.
Something is only better than nothing when nothing is the only other option.
So your point is that people should be paid according to what they want instead of what their skill set is worth to the business?
Nothing may be the only other option when you are talking about low-skilled labor. If you force companies to pay above-market wages, you have no idea of the other unintended consequences, such as the company’s inability to expand and create more jobs because their money is tied up in inefficient labor costs.
Not to mention the other unintended consequences of forcing such companies to pay for these inefficient wages: increased costs of goods. So instead of the poor people being able to buy that can of soup for $1, they now have to pay $1.25 for that same can of soup. That’s 25 cents less they have AND 25 cents less that would otherwise been paid to someone else, which would in turn be used to pay someone else’s wage. Walmart’s cheap prices allow people to spend their savings in other parts of the economy.
Raising the minimum wage seems like a good idea on its face, but there are many hidden, unintended consequences that most people seem to ignore.
Wait, are you saying all those wanting a higher minimum wage won’t possibly spend $10 on a burger instead of $5 to support their ideals?
Nooooooo…….no way. It’s only those that don’t support a minimum wage keeping McDonalds & Walmart open.
:)
Proper compensation is whatever a person is will to accept for the work being performed. Frequently, even in businesses owned by Libs/Dems, they pay different people different wages to do similar jobs. Tom makes more to stock shelves than Paul because the business owner needs workers and while Paul would take $8 an hour Tom would not and in order to get Tom to work he had to pay Tom $9. Happens all the time in innumerable businesses. Even where you work you probably know, or at least suspect someone is making more, or less, than you. should there be a law requiring employers pay all the same for the same task? Would you agree to a cut in a pay to bring yourself down to a fellow workers pay to achieve parity?
“Shell like you.” I fixed it for you. ;-)
So what do we do for full time workers not making enough money to raise a family? Let them eat cake? Right now we subsidize them so the Waltons can become even richer than they already are.
We D@*n sure don’t ask Obama to stick his nose in it.
He’s responsible for the suffering of more families than the embarrassing Jimmy Carter.
Failure and Obama have now become synonymous….if he advocates it….its a bad idea….
grandtango you just hate black people that’s why you hate Obama; he is doing what is right for people in need;raiseing the minimum wage will help .people are having a hard time making meat do you care; no.God will make it happen whether you and the republican like it are not;God has the LAST WORD.
Why should poor people be allowed to eat or have health insurance? Why do they need it or deserve it?? Let them starve and die early and painful deaths – that will teach them!!
There’s more than a kernel of truth in that argument from a GOP policy perspective.
Liar-in chief (“If you like your doctor,…”) wants desparately to change the subject away from health care. Fits,…why are you helping him?
You’re referring to Dubya then?
Reality is a stresser only to those in touch with it.
Only by getting people to accept even less than chicken scratch can we truly help them financially. Golly, why didn’t anyone think of this before?!
Rather Orwellian wouldn’t you say?
In your fantasy world you would have the populace earn pennies and no social welfare system. The free market deems poor people should starve and live in absolute poverty so it must be right, just like Ayn Rand would want
Dumb@$$#$ like you, live in the ABSOLUTE POVERTY of Ignorance…
You’re so stupid, you have to believe people not like you hate as much as you hate them…you ignorant piece of s#!*..
How ’bout grow a brain so you don’t make us have to see how F*#king Stupid left-wingers have to be, to vote for the Fools you keep putting in office…
Working really hard today, Tango…but unfortunately, we can’t pay you overtime. Tell you what: You get 50 more posts on the board by tonight, I’ll bring you some fries from Zestos.
Conspiracy much???…
PS: That tin foil helmet becomes you….
Ha! Ha! You nailed it!
Ayn Rand, the philosophical mentor for sociopaths everywhere…
The irony of you labeling those wishing to keep their own money sociopaths is pretty funny.
Horse ca-ca. Keeping your own money has nothing to do with the poor, sick souls who embrace the evil known as Ayn Rand. It is their contempt for the less fortunate and a concomitant desire to punish the least among us that fuels their psyche.
Just probing your thought processes;
What do you think would happen if everyone were given one million dollars. In general, society, prices, wages, international conflict. Just curious.
In a few years the wealthy would be wealthy again and those who are currently poor would be poor again. Personal responsibility is a bitch.
I’ll respond later but I am curious as to GG’s thoughts.
Crushing walnuts in your ass, Beauregard?
ouch!
Or those who inherited daddy’s money and never worked a day in their life would go the way of the British nobles when the money started to run out. I.E. trying to use their family connections to get a government hand out.
What kind of off-the-wall rhetorical question is that?
I can’t answer for others but I would blow through the money like shit through a goose and, quite frankly, I don’t give a rat’s ass whose hands it ultimately wind up in.
It isn’t rhetoric, it was intended as an exercise in critical thinking. I wanted to see where your mind would go with this hypothetical. Judging by other posts you have made in this thread I was expecting too much.
So, then lower your expectations and we will engage in a game of Soggy Biscuit….
“It is their contempt for the less fortunate and a concomitant desire to punish the least among us that fuels their psyche”
That is pure projection. It is a fantasy in your head. It is akin to the Nazi’s showing Jews eating babies in their newspaper cartoons. It’s a simplistic, emotionally appealing view held simply to reinforce your world view that has no basis in reality.
“The problem with the libertarian mind is a complete inability to understand the concept of unintended consequences.”
That you, as a champion of central planning and all things diktat and outside of voluntary society would say that, is well…hysterical!
Dammit, Will, if you want to speak to me do so directly and cut out the fucking off-the-cuff nom de plumes. Still waiting for you to tell us how the economy will not implode if the mass of our population works for slave wages.
God forbid that Americans should experience the economic security and social justice that Scandinavian citizens enjoy.
What you fail to recognize is that, once dirtbags like the Koch Bros. and Howard Rich gain absolute and complete control, they are going to jettison you like yesterday’s cat litter.
Want to see a vision of what our future looks like…BEHOLD:
http://www.alternet.org/american-justice-rich-child-rapist-goes-free-poor-woman-trying-feed-her-kids-jailed
First, this isn’t Will.
Second, doing work doesn’t make one a “slave wage”, if you impugn those who work for wages than you are no better than those rich old white Republicans you hate.
Third, your last link has no discernable purpose other than demagoguery. There are travesty’s of justice every day. They are symptomatic of a broken, corrupt government that we see through the window of its “justice” system.
I don’t know why I’m even wasting time.
Then, not than. You’ve done that in all your post. At least try to look intelligent.
I think you better spend some learning the proper use of “then” versus “than”.
time
That would be good for you.
“wages than you”
That’s the one spot it should be “then”.
Where are the “in all your post” others?
“I don’t know why I’m even wasting time.”
Well, duh, if you can’t figure it out just stop, go sit in a corner and scratch your head until you forget what the issue was in the first place.
A little quite time would be good for you anyway. You can do an inventory of the booger collection you keep under your fingernails.
“Second, doing work doesn’t make one a “slave wage”, if you impugn those who work for wages than you are no better than those rich old white Republicans you hate.”
The judge in the DuPont case was appointed by a Democrat.
The case of the poor woman being persecuted, well read for yourself. The “woman” referenced in the first sentence is the one that called in the problem;
“The woman reported to police the two young children were inside the vehicle parked directly in the sun, with the engine off, the doors closed and each of the four windows were just slightly open.
Taylor returned to the vehicle about 45 minutes later and told the officer she had just finished a job interview and did not have anyone to watch her children.”
Her case hasn’t even went to court yet, it is May 22. She has only had an arraignment. Likely they will throw the book at her, want to bet on the party that nominated the judge in this case when it comes to trial?
I guess its the Republicans fault for not stopping the Democrats?
Democrat/Republican WTF is the difference? They are all corrupt to the core. The issue the author was reporting on was the difference in the way the law treats the wealthy vs. everybody else and the total collapse of anything remotely resembling “justice.”
“That is pure projection. It is a fantasy in your head. It is akin to the Nazi’s showing Jews eating babies in their newspaper cartoons. It’s a simplistic, emotionally appealing view held simply to reinforce your world view that has no basis in reality.”
Is it pure projection to call Ms. Rand a sociopath when she groveled at the feet of child murderer William Hicks?
http://michaelprescott.freeservers.com/romancing-the-stone-cold.html
“sick souls who embrace the evil known as Ayn Rand.”
First, if we were all judged to the standard of Jesus than we all fail, including you.
Second, as you can see above you referred to those “who embrace”, not Rand yourself-so please keep your slander straight.
My point is this, if you want to do the Nazi equivalent of painting those who embrace some of Rand’s philosophies as baby eaters then don’t expect as real dialogue to come out of it and don’t expect to be taken seriously.
“Second, as you can see above you referred to those “who embrace”, not Rand yourself-so please keep your slander straight.”
Are you drunk? That sentence is a jumble of incomplete, incoherent thoughts…
“First, if we were all judged to the standard of Jesus than we all fail, including you.”
Obama, Pelosi and Reid really understood the unintended consequences of Obama care.
The number of people in the US who were uninsured has dropped dramatically since the enactment of the Affordable Care Act.
You Thumped Thumper with your Bible? What did Bambi have to say about that?
On the notion that social security should not be raised to $10.10/hour across the entire nation, I would actually be inclined to agree. I think some states should have a $10/hr minimum wage, or even higher, but SC isn’t one of them.
The biggest problem for me is that extremely wealthy corporations that can easily afford it, and small businesses that can’t afford it too well, are held to the exact same standards. Walmart and McDonalds are favorites to point out, and rightfully so. They rip off their employees and we pay for the rest.
However, the minimum wage also applies to employers who actually can’t afford to pay more (start-ups, small-time restaurants, mom and pop shops, etc.), and it also covers persons who don’t really need more (say, high school students just looking for spending money).
It’s just a complicated issue that a single minimum wage won’t really help fix.
However, to completely abolish minimum wage? How is hiring people for even less going to make them any more independent? That won’t help anyone but the so-called “job creators” who already are profiting big. Completely abolish the safety net? What if we completely abolished overitme, too? Imagine working for $4/hour with no food stamps, no Medicaid, nothing to make that miniscule paycheck pan out, and no better options? I’m sure someone will come along and argue that the market will correct itself. Yes, well, how long will that take? What do those individuals do until then? And the inevitable question: what if it doesn’t?
It’s completely outside of reality to expect such actions to actually help the most destitute among us. Can raising the minimum wage hurt things? Sure it can, but people honestly believe abolishing it won’t? Really? Well, the only people buying that horse crap are people who don’t make minimum wage.
I am perplexed at how you can say Wal-Mart rips off their employees. First off no one is making them work there (of course with the present economic policies damaging the economy there aren’t many choices). Secondly how much should someone be paid (here in SC) to slide merchandise past a laser scanner and tell someone to scan the magnetic strip on their card down. Or, let’s look at the guy that takes boxes of crackers out of a bigger box and puts them on the shelf. Or, takes clothing out of a box and hangs it on a rack – a task definitely higher up on the skills ladder.
Many in fast food joints here in this state are already making more than minimum wage, maybe not beginners but…. I make more than a number of college educated people I know. I have developed and honed a set of work skills not many have and you would have me believe that those making less than I are in that predicament because I worked harder?
Sorry, the best thing you could do for low wage earners to eliminate the minimum wage. Minimum wage jobs are for people starting out or needing a second income. Most of these people calling for a higher minimum wage are just trafficking in human emotion despite the obvious evidence higher minimum wage is detrimental to the economy and the individual.
Look, man, you had it with your first sentence. Walmart put down a lot of small businesses, making it harder to find jobs. Secondly, why do the rest of us pay for their worker’s food stamps, while their company makes billions?
How did Wal-Mart put them out of business? If you put your dollars into those small businesses instead of Wal-Mart WallyWorld couldn’t do squat to anyone. Oh, I forgot, you do put your dollars into the small businesses and have never stepped foot in Wal-Mart, you and all the other people complaining about Wal-Mart. With so many of you people not stepping a foot in Wal-Mart how are they making so much money?
In a lot of ways, my good fellow:economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2013/08/no-walmart-doesnt-create-jobs.html
Wall Mart has had proven instances where corporate headquarters masterminded such policies as intentionally keeping most of its workforce part time so they would not qualify for Wall Marts already shitty health insurance and instead be pushed on to the state medicaid systems.
They also engineered a scheme to deny overtime wages to employees who deserved them as well as denying break times.
Wall Mart is evil.
You tell em Bo
YOU DONT CARE ABOUT PEOPLE IN NEED.
Funny: In North Dakota, where the private sector is producing energy, w/o waiting on Obama’s permission…six-figure job salaries are plentiful…
Why won’t Obama get the F*#k out our way…and let American employers solve our problems, instead of him imposing his gov’t Gestapo, and F*#king up everything…????
Why don’t you move to North Dakota and get a six figure job instead of sitting on your ass in SC and bitching about jobs? You are obviously either too lazy to do one of those jobs or too dumb to get one.
Instead of answering for the mess you’ve made, you just want me to be SILENT…You are a typical Obama liberal…
You never want to account for the failure that you are…
I like hearing from you. It makes my day special. When I see a Grand Tango post – I know – It’s another Great Day in South Carolina.
This proposal by Democrats:
1) Forces Republicans to vote up or down in an election year.
2) Completes the bribe to Latinos, sign up for Obamacare and we will raise the minimum wage; vote against Republicans for blocking the increase.
3) If passed, the gains in wages will be nullified with Obamacare individual mandate penalty or a Bronze Plan.
Starting in 2014, most people will have to have insurance or pay a “penalty deducted from your taxable income”. For individuals, penalty starts at $95 a year, or up to 1% of income, whichever is greater, and rise to $695, or 2.5% of income, by 2016.
For families the tax will be $2,085 or 2.5% percent of household income, whichever is greater. The requirement can be waived for several reasons, including financial hardship or religious beliefs. If the tax would exceed 8% of your income you are exempt, also some religious groups are exempt. That tax cannot exceed the cost of a “bronze plan” bought on the exchange.
This minimum wage political posturing in an election year is more about retaking the House and keeping the Senate. This is the show piece for their 2014 “A Fair Shot for Everyone” agenda to win in November.
yeah that…or the Dems actually have a plan to help Americans.
you’re so cute when you write about economics. raising the minimum is a crude tool to pry some money out of america’s fullest pockets and get it circulating in the economy. but it is a tool. min/ wage earners will spend it. everybody wins. of course the biggest winners will be the current winners who are bitching about it.
Exactly! Without a living wage how are the “job creators” going to be able to sell the trinkets and fobs that they hawk non-stop?
I’ll ask of you the same thing I asked of Smirks, would you have me believe that a business owes people wages they want or wages that their particular skill set is worth?
Well, Scrooge didn’t seem to think that Bob Cratchit’s “value” was of any consequence until he had his change of heart.
Maybe one day those three ghosts will appear to you.
Now, I am waiting for you to explain how the economy will not collapse once the masses have no buying power.
I can’t believe you referenced a fairy tale in a discussion about real world issues. I expected much better of you.
Your way of avoiding a very real question about the terminal effects of poverty wages. So answer that. You seem to run all over this board demanding answers to hypotheticals and “real world issues from everybody else”
Aren’t you the one on this thread who asked me what would happen if everybody got a million dollars. If that’s not a fairy tale…
Your way of avoiding a very real question about the terminal effects of poverty wages. So answer that. You seem to run all over this board demanding answers to hypotheticals and “real world issues from everybody else”
Aren’t you the one on this thread who asked me what would happen if everybody got a million dollars. If that’s not a fairy tale…
You cannot stand it when your handiwork is placed for you, can you??..
Being a a leftwing radical, means never having to be reminded of the failure and lives you F*#k-up just so you can go around patting yourself on the back, because you’ve been told there is no real God, other than you and Obama…
Thank (the true) God, it looks like the American people are figuring out, what I’ve tried to tell them about you…Sadly the lesson is falling hard on those who so much need good gov’t…but only have Obama, and the mess he has made…
Raising the minimum wage will bring a significant increase of wages to the majority of the workers in South Carolina. Just think, maybe with that raise we could afford a new super-highway to Myrtle Beach, so the minimum wagers could have a faster commute. Pedro sez – oop de mineemum.
Raising the minimum wage creates more unemployment. I suppose that those that get to keep their jobs are happy.
Raising the minimum wage $2.85 would cause an economic shock to many businesses. Not only would jobs be lost, some businesses would close. It would not be just minimum wage jobs lost.
Unemployment rate for teens 16 to 19 years old is 20.9%
Unemployment rate for Black teens 16 to 19 years old is 36.1%
Yeh yeh yeh.You think thats original fellow?Get a grip.Your ancestral Right Wingers have mouthed that same line EVERY time the minimum wage has been raised in the past and ,as usual, when all you Righties get all worked up about ANYTHING to help average people.Nothing happens.
What about the consequences to the average people in the form of lost jobs and increased costs of the products they now buy? I’m far from a “right winger” but there will be strong economic consequences if that happens. Since economic theory is imperfect and often plays out differently in practice than it does in theory, who knows for sure what would happen, but there will be unintended consequences from raising the minimum wage and who knows whether they will, on a whole, benefit the “average person.”
There are studies from states that have higher minimum wage that show little to no impact to employment. There are some things we simply cannot leave to “what the market will bear”. We lived through that false notion in the days of child labor and wages that didn’t allow families to live in anything but poverty. Is $10.10 the correct adjustment? I don’t know. But the current federal rate is too low.
Ok great. So we’ll just stoop back to the good ole days of robber barons in a race to the bottom of the wage scale and let the “free market” determine how low a wage should go. I’ll enjoy letting my son work at McDonald’s for 11 cents an hour.
Hell, Indian and Bangladeshi workers will live like kings on their wages.
Hate is the new love.
The worker is worth less than the shop keeper. You can take that to the bank.
suppose we offer the question do you support a minimum wage hike if it means you pay more for everything, $7.00 Big Macs, $6.00 Frostys, DoD prices for hardware (e.g. $600 coffee pots, $100 toilet seats) because the labor cost has to be covered somewhere, wonder how many (even SEIU) then support it?
And then the poor have to pay MORE for their Big Macs and groceries, all the while spending money that they otherwise have given to a different company (which, in turn, would give some money to their employees).
and only AFL-CIO serve to “benefit” as their contracts are tied to minimum wages.
again raising minimum wage hurts women, children and miniorities, thought suppressed by MSM
It seems to me the Republicans have predicted the collapse of western civilization in advance of every single increase in the minimum wage. They predicted the same thing when we outlawed child labor, and mandated a 40 hour work week, and overtime. I guess this time it is really really really going to happen.