For those of you who missed it, “America’s deadliest sniper” was shot and killed over the weekend by a fellow soldier suspected of suffering from some sort of post-traumatic stress disorder.
Thirty-eight year-old Chris Kyle – a former Navy SEAL who registered more than 160 confirmed kills during four tours in Iraq – was shot in the head at a shooting range in Erath County, Texas on Saturday. Also shot in the head at point blank range was Kyle’s neighbor, 35-year-old Chad Littlefield. The suspect? Twenty-five year-old Eddie Ray Routh, a combat veteran of the war in Iraq and U.S. military action in Haiti.
Apparently Kyle and Littlefield took Routh to the firing range to help him work out some of his post-war mental issues … (which is kind of like taking a fat kid to McDonald’s to work out his or her obesity issues).
Anyway, the incident jumped to a higher energy level when former U.S. Rep. Ron Paul – a longtime anti-war advocate – fired off an ill-wagered tweet about Kyle’s death.
Here’s what he had to say …
Chris Kyle’s death seems to confirm that “he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.” Treating PTSD at a firing range doesn’t make sense
— Ron Paul (@RonPaul) February 4, 2013
Damn …
Not surprisingly, Paul’s tweet spawned a fast and furious outpouring or recrimination – particularly from establishment “Republicans” eager for any opportunity to fit him for a straitjacket.
“Unbelievable, inexcusable, heartless, and utterly disrespectful,” South Carolina Republican operative Chris Slick posted on his Facebook page. “Chris Kyle is an American hero and for Ron Paul to make this kind of statement is beyond disrespectful, sadly, it is not all too surprising coming from this man.”
Obviously this website has been unapologetic in its support of Ron Paul over the years. We’ve also been consistent in opposing the unnecessary wars in Afghanistan and Iraq – and America’s ill-conceived foreign policy in general. And let’s be honest – what about Paul’s tweet isn’t fair? Or accurate (unless of course you think the 160 people Kyle killed didn’t also have grieving friends and families)?
However having said all of that Paul probably should have better considered “time, place and manner” prior to sending out this particular missive.
This website has always focused its disdain for interventionist foreign policy on the leaders who craft that policy – not the soldiers who execute it. And while Paul may be correct in his tweet … he would do well in our estimation to acknowledge this distinction.
More to the point which needs making: The prevalence of various post-traumatic stress disorders among members of our military is another reason to think long and hard before spending hundreds of billions of dollars sending them someplace they shouldn’t be in the first place.
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70 comments
Ill timed and worded tweet by Paul, or whoever wrote it.
But I do question how this young man was being “helped” at a shooting range. And I will never understand the obsessions with guns. This SEAL was a great soldier, but he had dedicated his life to warfare and guns. Even after leaving the service he started a “security” company.
Sympathy out to his wife and family. And Ron Paul should not have put this out in public display.
Realistic exposure has been as effective or more effective than other more conventional treatments. Returning Vietnam Nam veterans who typed in the military fared much better than those who got out and went home. Chris Kyle may have his doubters concerning his kills and his confrontation with Jesse Ventura but he was genuine in his care and actions towards wounded veterans whether those wounds were physical or emotional.
Stayed not typed
OBD, A friend of mine typed and drove a general around in Vietnam and he adapted well when he returned home. He went on and got his masters in Library Science. Damn good at the keyboard he was.
According to an interview with Chris Kyle from January 2011, treating solders with PTSD at a shooting range was to associate them with something they were familiar with.
Since I don’t know anything about PTSD or how to treat it, I am not qualified to give an opinion.
I know guys who were in Vietnam and went into the reserves a number of years later and had an issue or two (one had a flashback) when they went out on a range for annual qualification but never did anything like that. Noone ever felt in danger
Only time I had a “flashback” here in the states had absolutely NOTHING to do with being on a firing range (as I have posted, I was on a military pistol team before and after I was over there and the majority of us were Iraq/Afghanistan vets – none of us had any problems whatsoever with competition shooting).
I was just listening to the news on the radio and the casuality report struck me the wrong way and I experienced an anxiety attack. It came out of nowhere…… I wouldn’t have expected a reaction like that in a million years.
I had to call a friend (A Vietnam vet) to help me get over it.
Since he sniped his kills, would he be considered a hero, or simply an effective soldier?
Ouch.
Not trying to disparage the guy. You don’t rack up 150+ kills without exposing yourself to danger.
On the contrary, I appreciated your comment.
I understand that it does no good to dance on a man’s grave. But whether you meant to or not, you bring up a good point.
The country is told that the soldiers are hero’s, etc.
If you dare to say otherwise, you can just pick up a gun and shut your trap, etc.
What isn’t talked about though is the reality of what war is and the common sense attitudes towards war.
If it was, and there wasn’t this borderline idolatry towards soldiers, their job, etc- the population might not be so blood thirsty and our politicians so willing to fulfill the bloodlust while enriching themselves and the MIC.
I believe there is a place for a professional soldier, but I’ve had enough of the deification of them…it only serves the purpose of the puppet masters. (although it probably makes the poor sap who loses his legs to a roadside bomb feel better for a while too)
I agree with you. Just because you are a soldier does not automatically make you a hero. And idolizing soldiers often obfuscates their purpose and makes it harder to challenge whether they should be fighting at all.
Only a percentage of soldiers are actually heroes. Reading history reveals that many are cowards, even though they wear the uniform. The My Lai soldiers certainly were not heroes. Nor are our current soldiers who have butchered families.
This guy may be considered a hero if, for example, he exposed himself to enemy fire to help other soldiers avoid being shot. But if he just sniped the enemy from a range that they were incapable of matching, then I believe he was simply an effective soldier who did his job very well. While snipers are necessary, their line of work seems less heroic to me than other front-line soldiers.
In sum, I don’t know enough about what he did to conclude one way or the other.
Snipers are generally fairly vulnerable, usually with little more than themselves and their spotter. They are feared and hated by the enemy, and are considered some of the highest priority targets by same. Their actions regularly save lives, often of their fellow soldiers.
So, was every action of his “heroic”? Perhaps not. But if he saved lives while putting himself at high risk then I’d say it’s appropriate to call him a hero.
If he did save lives putting himself at credible risk, then those were heroic actions.
You nailed it Sid
According to one source, he was awarded “2 Silver Stars, 5 Bronze Stars with Valor, 2 Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medals and more.” That much hardware tells me he went above and beyond, and was, indeed, a hero. I haven’t read his book, but I’ve heard him speak about some of the things he did, and what he described involved saving lives and being at high risk. I don’t question his status, but if you want more clarity, I suggest you read his book.
Def a hero in my opinion.
“We’ve also been consistent in opposing the unnecessary wars in Afghanistan and Iraq”
Call Iraq unnecessary if you want but calling Afghanistan an unnecessary war is ignorant. Will Folks may have been beating his wife while al qaeda (harbored and protected by the Taliban) flew planes into the trade center, pentagon and Shanksville, PA but some of us saw what happened and know that those responsible should be punished to the fullest.
So what are we still doing over there?
How are those guys in the hills a threat to us any more than a typical terrorist that could be operating almost anywhere in African and middle-eastern countries?
How did he get killed when he had all of those guns to protect himself?
ron paul is a kook
Mr. Paul chose poorly in his words about the death of a person who has given service, honorably, to a country that Mr. Paul wanted to lead as president. At this point, it cannot be determined just how accurate Mr. Paul’s comment is or isn’t due to a lack of details surrounding the murders. Being killed while in the performance of service may have been better accepted with such a degrading comment. The fact that Mr. Kyle was no longer in service and was trying to help fellow human beings with stress coping demonstrates some measure of sincerity that obviously is lacking within Mr. Paul’s comment. Mr. Kyle’s civilian efforts was an honorable selfless endeavor that should not have been cheapened by Mr. Paul’s comment.
What’s not fair? What’s not accurate? Well, first/foremost I do not know of any persons, insurgents or otherwise, that Mr. Kyle has killed since his service time ended. Had he continued the same behavior in civilian life as he did in military life, then maybe your position would be a little more appropriate.
I am confident that Mr. Kyle realized there was some degree of risk involved with helping persons with stress disorders, and believe that if information was known to him to raise suspicion that this time it would have potentially resulted with such a horrible ending, he may not have taken on this particular risk. But there again, no details surrounding what happened have been released to give us better insight as to what prompted the murders.
My preference would have been for Mr. Paul to speak of his own efforts to help those returning from war with such disorders and use it as a way to bring greater awareness to the dangers associated with such dangerous work. Instead, he lowered himself to a distasteful level in an effort to look down his nose on another human being who previously participated in military operations that Mr. Paul disliked.
This has spookville written all over it. The parties involved are all military and the sniper was heavily decorated and likely an intelligence asset.
American Sniper is a good read I would suggest for anyone that wears Man pants and has ever been in any type of life situation. It’s easy to read and like the guy from his writings.
Read the book then make up your mind about the guy, his marriage and his Faith. It’s one thing to Judge a guy but in this case you can read the book and not just the cover.
Yes, I’m sure God will be saying, “Welcome to Heaven son, the 150 people you killed were predestined to die at your hand for your entrance to Heaven.”
Kyle is and always will be a hero in my book. The little creep who murdered him probably shot him in the back of the head. God bless Kyle’s widow and his two small children. Their daddy lived and died helping and protecting others. America needs more men like Kyle.
Paul is exactly right in his comments. Kyle brags about killing hundreds of people, gets rich off the blood on his hands, dies in the same manner in which he’s killed hundreds, and then we’re supposed to weep for him? Give me a break. This man did not defend our freedom, he was an occupier of a nation that did not want us on their land, rightfully so.
Perhaps instead of taking a guy with PTSD to a shooting range Mr. Kyle could have referred him to a VA psychiatrist, or better yet, lobbied Congress to stop the needless wars we’re currently fighting, which result in all these kids coming back so screwed up.
I think the blood of these two men is on the hands of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al who lied us into the Iraq War. Without it, this man would probably not have serious mental issues and would not have been on that range with these two men.
Bush and Cheney still get a free pass for the thousands of dead Americans and tens/hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis as well as a destabilized Iran due to the removal of its biggest enemy at our hands. Yet people want to lynch Hillary Clinton over the deaths of four Americans when the facts surrounding Benghazi are still in dispute.
With apologies to Smirks for my doing exactly what I poke fun at him for doing, here’s a special message for JC and sm:
“Not every flower can say love, but a rose can. Not every plant survives thirst, but a cactus can. Not every retard can read, but look at you go, little buddy! I don’t care if you lick windows, or have intercourse with farm animals. You hang in there cupcake, you’re fucking special to me, you’re my friend, look at you smiling at your screen! You crayon eating bastard you!”
According to news reports, the little puke who murdered Kyle had been under the care of a psychiatrist. How did that work out?
SM–the blood of a lot of Americans are on the hands of Bill Clinton…had he done is job, Bin Laden would have been neutralized long before 9/11, and 9/11 NEVER would have happened…Sudan offered Bin Laden to the US on several occasions, but Billy Boy had other things on his mind…like Lewinsky…
So Sid, did you agree with us invading Iraq?
And really?, by this train of thought do we blame Bush because of the briefs he received in August of 2001 saying that Bin Laden wanted to fly planes into buildings, and he didn’t act before 9/11/01?
No, sm, but that’s not what I am talking about here. I’m talking about you being such an extremist that you will use the murder of an American hero in order to make things up that will promote your pathological hatred of George Bush. You keep it up, little fellah, as I just want you to be happy in your twisted little world.
Oh, and please point me to the brief Bush received in August 2001 that stated Bin Laden wanted to fly planes into buildings. You must be one of those cute little truthers.
But to use your own little example, I’d say Barry is a little more responsible for the murder of an American Diplomat (and the others) than Bush is for anything Clinton failed to do. After all, there are countless, verified reports that requests were made for more security, and that there was a serious threat of an attack in Libya, yet Barry didn’t do a thing.
I was referring to this:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/25834.html
If I recollect, Bush told the person who gave it to him that he had covered his ass, or something to that nature.
I’m not an extremist and I consider this Kyle guy to be a patriot. Fact is, he was sent to a war we were lied to in order to support, killed a bunch of people and came back home, tried to help people and was killed by another guy who had been sent to the same sorry excuse of a war.
I think Paul was wrong to post such a dumb tweet. It does nothing to help anyone’s cause.
But I am angry that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld lied us into the Iraq war. It will cost us trillions of dollars, our respect throughout the world and several thousand American soldiers. And thousands of soldiers will come back with PTSD, ruining their lives and costing us millions and millions of dollars in permanent disability payments.
So did you support the Iraq War or not?
So, like I said, you make stuff up to promote your pathological hatred of Bush. There’s nothing in that news article (or the actual brief, which is available) that refers to flying planes into buildings.
I’m sure Kyle’s family appreciates you using his murder to promote your anti-Bush agenda. Perhaps if you had started off praising Kyle and lambasting Rue Paul I might believe you, but I don’t. You’re one of those tortured souls who simply cannot MoveOn. I guess you still hold a grudge against FDR for letting Pearl Harbor get attacked?
You are an extremist, but I wouldn’t expect you to admit to being one. I presume you are just as pissed at Barry for not immediately pulling out of Iraq, and allowing more death and PTSD cases. Nah, that would make sense, which would be unlike you. You probably are just fine with his policy of killing Americans without due process.
Oh, I already answered your question, but you are apparently too stupid or too full of hatred for Bush to have been able to notice. Now go eat another crayon, my special little guy!
I completely agree with South Mauldin. Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are responsible for thousands of deaths of young Americans who had no choice but go fight a made up war. The reasons the three creeps wanted this war: glory, oil, control and riches. If Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld have any feelings at all, they surely can not sleep at night without seeing dead bodies, body parts and crying wives, children and parents.
Thank God that 90+% of the American people realize Ron Paul is a dottering idiot. You people who blindly support this fool are a discrace to yourselfs and your country.
It was inappropriate for an MD/politician to offer any comment about a health problem on the POS social media.
I’m tired of trying to make a purchase and, before telling me how much my bill is, the other person asking:
Are you a fireman, policeman, emt or paramedic?
Are you over 55, have aarp or are you disabled in any way?
Are you a veteran of any foreign war?
Well, no, no, and no, I’m just a 48 year old college grad who followed the plan, worked hard, never lived off the government, and would like to buy this fucking widget shit you are selling, so how much the fuck are you going to screw me over to make up for the discounts to the others?
I went to the DMV the other day and pulled my ticket, sat for and hour forty-five until some long-haired unshaven 20 year-old kid wearing a Possom Trot Fire department shirt sat down.
He made small talk, I was polite and then he asked if he could have my ticket cause he was in a hurry and in case I hadn’t noticed he was a firefighter.
I said, sorry man, appreciate your sacrifice and all, but I’ve got to get somewhere to.
He says, yeah, you old people don’t respect us guys who are putting our lives on the line everyday, blah blah blah.
So, I reply like this: Look, dude, you were probably 10 years old on 911, Possum Trot is a corrupt little volunteer station out in the boonines, and the only fires you probably ever see your cousin starts them when he is cooking meth. So, if you want to call me old again, I’ll gladly kick your scrawny little ass right here and enjoy a few days in the can away from my old lady. You, on the other hand, will probably miss a few weeks work from the broken arm I”m going to provide for you, and you’ll lose that shitty rat rod you brought up here from the country when you don’t give Title Loan that weekly check. And finally, if my house caught on fire and you showed up I wouldn’t let you near it cause I have insurance and I’d just as soon watch that motherfucker burn.
Now, I think they just called my number 35 so fuck off.
True story.
Excellent!
Good account.
Just don’t try to buy ANYTHING from Radio Shack or GNC. They want to know every fucking thing.
Maybe next time you can just tell the clerk your just a whiney ass American? There may be a discount for that. Bwaha!
That’s the price of Second Amendment Freedoms. Guns were pried from Kyle’s cold, dead hands – the way it ought to be.
Were the Serb snipers and are the Syrian government snipers “heroes” too?
I have a (post-war) friend who was a sniper on the Ho Chi Mihn Trail. Dropped off for days at a time, just him and his “dragger.” He was considered a fine soldier, but not a hero particularly. He rarely mentions it at all.
Times change I suppose.
I thought heroes are millionaires like TIGER WOODS and LeBron James…guys who risk life and limb…to make that special putt or lay-up…NO you are exactly right… Smirkey…guys like Kyle aren’t heroes…Tiger and LeBron are…
Day-um Smirks!!
You have reached BigT levels of notoriety® on FITSNEWS. You don’t even have to post for people to invoke your name.
You go, boyee!!!!
That makes total sense, SSFH! There are no actual heroes, because someone may disagree with the “heroic” action. Let’s strike the word from all dictionaries. If someone puts their life in harms way to protect a woman from a violent rapist, that’s not really heroic action in the mind of the rapist, is it?
Honestly, I’m not sure if you are really stupid, or just trying lamely to be provocative. To simplify things for you, since I’m leaning towards the former, Americans, for the most part, consider its soldiers to be heroes when they put themselves in harms way to save the lives of their fellow soldiers and/or civilians. But perhaps you are of Serbian and Syrian parentage, so that might explain your confusion.
I’m uncomfortable labeling someone a “hero” except in the most exceptional circumstances. That’s a hard standard to live up to 24/7.
But I’m more comfortable saying things like “he was a hero that day,” or “his actions were heroic,” etc.
After reading a little more about this sniper, it’s hard to imagine him winning all of that hardware without being heroic at times.
I appreciate your perspective, but in my opinion, if you act heroic on a regular basis, you are a hero. Acting heroic once may not earn the label, but this guy did it regularly. He could have served in other ways, but he chose to be a sniper, putting himself out there, regularly exposed, and regularly earning more and more hatred from the enemy. He had a bounty on his head, and he kept doing it. And he saved a lot of lives. You don’t have to call him a hero, but I do.
sid shortened — “He’s on my side so he’s a hero.”
Simple at least. And for some you have to make it real simple.
No, SSFH, but nice try. One person can, indeed, have a personal hero, based on either the influence that “hero” has on the person, or because of some sacrifice the “hero” made that helped the individual. I’m guessing you’ve had little of either in your life, which may be why you seem so confused about things most in society understand. No suitable guidance during your formative years. Then again, maybe you’re just a sociopath.
Kyle, on the other hand, is considered a hero by most Americans who are not sociopaths because he regularly put his life on the line to save the lives of others. And, yes, to save others you sometimes have to kill bad people. And, yes, “bad” is subjective here. These are complicated concepts, so I don’t expect you to fully understand, but maybe you can offer one of your inane, pointless quips as your standard rebuttal.
I seriously doubt Ron Paul has ever “tweeted” anything. He is probably in the unenviable position of owning the tweet or throwing a loyal staffer under the bus.
…or awkwardly do neither, like he did with the newsletters…
*Beat y’all to it! :-) *
fits gotta haley-PTSD,baD
ron paul ; a twit or twat?
wave goodbye to pollyanna
you go,tbg/thebigguy
don’t beat if it can be eat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MlMtoebqm8
“What about Paul’s tweet isn’t fair?!?!”
Jesus, dude…
We can all argue about positions, but this comment (and your tacit support of it) is absolutely unfair. Live by the sword and die by the sword? Do you really think it’s logical, rational, or fair for RP to compare or relate Kyle’s service in the military during a time of war to his murder in cold blood?
The exact details of what transpired at the range prior to the shooting aren’t known (and may never be), but this fact in no way has any bearing on the stupidity and callousness of RP’s remark. We know you need hits, but your support of this crap is very disappointing.
Obama / Holder illegally send guns into the hands of Mexican cartels who slaughter women and kids in villages all over Mexico.
Yet, a school massacre occurs in the US and they are ready to confiscate all the guns. Perhaps they need another load for the cartels.
More on topic, it’s hard to offend a dead person.
I see Dr.Paul is still batshit crazy
Let him tweet all he wants. It is protected by the Constitution.
Do people even research anymore? What Kyle was doing is legit therapy:
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/02/ron-paul-chris-kyle-killing-ptsd/61777/
Now, if you want to argue Kyle was not qualified as to whether this type of therapy was appropriate for the killer, then that might be a legitimate criticism. But I doubt anyone on this board is in a better position to make that determination than Kyle was.
With the benefit of hindsight, I’m pretty certain that we are all in a better position to make that determination than he is.
Trial and error amigo
“Shock therapy” was at one time considered legit too.
Blood-letting as well.
?
Actually, ECT is still used for some patients. And I believe there are still conditions for which bloodletting is used.
I think a better example for your terrible argument is lobotomy.
Oh yeah?
Well Kyle IS dead, so I guess when you shift the time frame everyone is in a better position to make that determination “than he is.” Thanks for that important insight.
“Actually, ECT is still used for some patients. And I believe there are still conditions for which bloodletting is used.
I think a better example for your terrible argument is lobotomy.”
lol….not really…the irony of you arguing for legitimate electro shock and blood-letting while calling my argument “terrible” is the funniest thing I’ve read today.
Although, thanks for throwing in lobotomy’s too.
:)
?
I have not “argued for” anything. You said they were “at one time” considered legitimate, which implies they now are not now considered legitimate. That is factually inaccurate.
You are welcome for the lobotomy example. Does not help the underlying lack of logic to your argument, though.
So let me get this straight, you are arguing the general acceptance of blood-letting and shock therapy as legitimate treatments?
Futher, you add lobotomy’s but the claim a lack of logic….cryptically no less….
I’m not sure I could make a “logical” argument to you.
edit: the to “then claim”
well one thing about heroes we cAn alL agree on: it took real heroics for will folKs to beat UP that girl. and since he knows what is real hero conduct, i’Ll just Take his word on the matter.
I had to quit listening to Kevin Cohen on radio WVOC as he fawns over every single military person and calls them heroes — ad nauseum.
Cohen was abject Neocon of the highest order.
Not only was he a bore and at times rude, his intellectual depth was that of a tufted tit mouse.
His behavior also seemed to rub off on his “producer” Rob.
WVOC did the right thing in shit canning him. I’ve noticed their sponsors have swelled since then.
I couldn’t stand the way he bootlicked the military, republican pols and assorted friends of the Neocon order/agenda.
I especially hated his universal cheerleading for all things Israel, the 51st American state. I used to laugh in my car when he claimied “objectivity” in doing so.
Go to Walmart next to Fort Jackson and mull around and observe the “soldiers” walking around. Better yet go down to the bus stop on Forest drive and observe the “soldiers” who are out of uniform and are on leave. Fairly obvious that these enlisted soldiers would have a tough time getting a job at McDonalds. They look like, act like and dress like thugs. Tattoos, sagging clothes, and punk jewelry. This is today’s Army? I’m not impressed.
At least the Marines I see occasionally look decent.