THE INFAMY … AND THE BLOOD … IS ALSO ON OUR HANDS
December 7, 1941 was indeed a date which will “live in infamy …” just not for the reason most Americans think.
Despite what some conspiracy theorists believe, there is no doubt that the Japanese Empire perpetrated the attack on Pearl Harbor. But did American foreign policy force their hand? And did the administration of Franklin Roosevelt know the attack was coming? And most importantly – did Roosevelt want America to be attacked?
The answers to those questions are “yes, yes and yes.”
In 1940, America moved to block Japan’s interests in French Indochina by imposing an embargo on steel. In June 1941 President Franklin Roosevelt ordered all Japanese assets frozen. A month later, the United States shut off oil exports to Japan.
America was in no uncertain terms picking a fight – eager to provoke an attack so that it could jump into World War II on the side of the allies. In fact ten days before the attack U.S. War Secretary Henry Stimson wrote in his diary that he and Roosevelt had discussed “how we should maneuver them (the Japanese) into the position of firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves.”
“It was the desire of President Roosevelt, and Prime Minister (Winston) Churchill that we get into the war, as they felt the Allies could not win without us and all our efforts to cause the Germans to declare war on us failed,” recalls one American Admiral.
Why couldn’t America just declare war on the Axis powers and be done with it? Because at the time of Pearl Harbor, most Americans wanted to stay out of World War II. A decision to enter the conflict preemptively would have been wildly unpopular.
All told, 2,400 Americans died in the Japanese “surprise” attack. Another 418,000 would perish over the course of the next four years. And while we’re not saying that America wouldn’t have had to engage this conflict at some point – the tide of the war was already beginning to turn against the Axis powers prior to Pearl Harbor.
In fact it was on December 5, 1941 that the Russian Army launched a massive counterattack against invading German forces positioned outside of Moscow – a blow from which Adolf Hitler’s German Army never recovered.
Bottom line? World War II would have resulted in the defeat of the Axis powers with or without America getting involved. And while American intervention clearly helped accelerate its defeat – and may have been consistent with our nation’s long term interests – pretending that Pearl Harbor was something it wasn’t disgraces the memory of those who died there and in the years that followed.
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58 comments
This is a very brave write up.
I applaud you for it.
You will be sounded hammered for it but it is brave and true none the less.
Let the pounding commence.
edit: “soundly hammered”
Make that “well deservedly hammered”. Lay off the sauce ?, you’re usually far more coherent than this.
I usually write better when liquored up. Unfortunately I have too much on my plate to do it as much as I’d like and have to restrict it to Friday nights and Saturday date nights with the wife.
“World War II would have resulted in the defeat of Axis powers with or without America getting involved”
Hope you don’t start playing that song.
I Disagree strongly.
Dis haz bin known fer manie yeers, but da truf aint always eazy t’ heer. Well dun, suh.
Unfortunately FITS left out some vital items.
Japan was experiencing a population explosion and their resources were lacking. Conquest of adjoining areas was the most logical way to quickly get to those resources like invading China, grabbing oil in the Dutch Indonesia and old French assetts in what is now Vietnam since the French and Dutch were effectively neutralized by Germany.
The United States and The Roosevelt Administration saw this coming and were taking steps to counter Japan’s expansion at first with diplomacy and embargoes. The Japanese wern’t just “annexing” these areas, they were INVADING/CONQUERING and SUBJUGATING THE POPULATION along with a shitload of rape and pillage along the way.
If FITS hasen’t read it yet, I suggest he read “AT Dawn We Slept”.
Then rewrite tha above comments.
I’ve been to the Arizona Memorial and it is a powerful experience. Maybe FITS has too. If not he needs to.
Without WWII being won without our active involvement…….
WTF???????
Roosevelt’s “Arsenel of Democracy’ (prior to our actual involvement) plugged a few holes in the dyke but the dam would have burst wide open if the US had not joined in.
ARE you crazy?????
As a Boomer, I have uncles who served in the Pacific – only one surviving (others including my Dear departed father served in Europe) in WWII and it was hell. I’m sure other “Boomers” have the same story.
I have to leave it at that because it would take hours to discuss this in depth.
As much as I like and appreciate FIT’s blog, he is dead wrong in this assessment.
I’m usually on the FITS side on this one.
But the last comment about the Axis losing without the USA.
Foolish statement. The article made sense till that statement. Makes the whole article smell.
Even if you don’t like the idea/notion that the Axis might have been defeated with US help…you really should throw out the rest of the write up.
We did provoke the Japanese, that’s not really in doubt.
I can grant that whether the Axis would have eventually been defeated or not is up for reasonable debate.
The notion that Roosevelt knew an attack was coming is pretty appalling none the less and there’s quite a bit of evidence suggesting that was the case.
edit: “SHOULDN’T throw out”
Blame America First…
I see FITS applies his same Paul-ian America Hate to WWII as he sides w/ Brutal Mudering Jihadists in 2001…
I’d love for you Miserable Pieces of $#!T to go live in one of the countries you bow to, and run your F%&*kin mouths…
You Deserve freedom less than any of us…but you have your lives only because we are free to speak…Even when that speech is used to show how Ignorant and disgusting the left is…
Hitler would be proud of you, as Achmadeanajad is today…
Glad to see you back YosemitT.
I’ve been missing your insightful comments, Varmint.
youtube.com/watch?v=THWCH2Nwsss
Dude, stick to politics and leave history to historians. Your revisionist “evil US intents” version is simply more tinfoil hat fodder.
Japan attacked US forces in more than just Hawaii on December 7th and 8th. You left off Philippines, Malaysia, Wake Island, Guam, Thailand, Shanhai and Midway.
Japan’s attack on US forces was a preemptive strike to ensure America did not get involved in Japan’s planned conquest of the Western Pacific. Had they caught the carriers in port that day, they may well have been successful in delaying our responses until 1944 or 45.
The “excesses” of the Japanese involvement in mainland China were already well known to the US and allied nations. Those excesses and a desire to slow Japan’s expansion were the primary reasons we placed embargoes on Japan.
What he said & I posted……..
If I can, I’m going to Wake one day
Talk about “Hallowed Ground”…………….
But if I could only go one place on my “Bucket list” it will be the “Valley of Tears”…………..
You have to wonder what websites he’s been visiting recently to make him wade into waters well above his head.
I don’t doubt that Roosevelt wanted Japan to fire the first shot. But I’m sure he was thinking along the lines of a sub firing a torpedo, and not a full-on assault on Pearl Harbor.
Also, to state as fact that the Axis would have been defeated without US involvement just further proves how sophomoric this article was. Without US help, the Krauts would not have had to worry about the Western front, and could have turned their full attention to the Soviets. Having to prepare for a US/British invasion on the west, while simultaneously fighting the Reds in the east is what ultimately led to their downfall. While the Germans were foolish to try to march towards Moscow and should have learned the lessons of history (i.e. that Russia’s best defense is it’s winter and endless supply of men), most likely they would have had plenty of resources to stem a Soviet counterattack if they had not been forced to divide their forces. I do not believe the Soviets could have come close to conquering Germany without US involvement.
And actually, research shows that the Roosevelt Admin and the War Department thought the first strike would be in the Phillipines and sent word to McArthur. The attack on Pearl caught everybody by surprise.
The Phillipines were attacked at almost the same time but Pearl was first.
Damn, I thought everybody knew that…
But it seems like history went out the window with the Gen X’ers not to even mention the Gen Y’s
Carry on “Boomers”!!!!
I’m actually Gen X, but was a history major (and still enjoy history, particuarly military history).
Its a start. Now lets explore that little USS Liberty incident!
Ha! Bomb thrower!
lol…I like it.
Or Beiruit in 1983 for that matter…………
Yeah right, Israel attacked a US Intel ship to provoke a war with the US?!?
The liberty looked like any of a number of foreign intel ships floating around the oceans. The Liberty was a “liberty class cargo vessel” built during WWII (along with 2,700 sister ships – serving any number of foreign countries and private entities in the 60s). She was not marked as US in any readily identifiable manner. Here’s a pic – en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USS_Liberty.jpg
Did Israel know it was a US ship – maybe? The ship was attacked during the 1967 “Six Days War” and Israel claimed they thought she was an Egyptian ship. There were a number of US, Egyptian, Soviet and assorted similar appearing other vessels in “harm’s way” at the time. There was a report of shelling originating on approximately the reciprocal bearing from the Liberty to the target.
In the end it looks more like bad intel coupled with bad battle tracking coupled with poor targeting practice. Why would Israel attack her staunchest allies intel ship?
A lot more than that to it Mr. Sanders. Look at all the facts and let the chips lay where ever they may fall. There is a good film on the net about the subject called; USS Liberty, Dead in The Water.
I tend to look at the facts rather than watch BooBTube videos.
Lots of alternative interpretations out there but the underlying question is always “why attack an ally”. The best argument is that the Liberty was watching the Negev to make sure that Israel didn’t rocket the Cairo (or Bagdad or Damascus depending on which theory you’re following).
The story goes that a boomer was following the Liberty with instruction to target the Negev launch sites if it looked like Israel was about to launch in order to prevent the USSR from taking that same action and forcing us into World War 3. The problems with that argument are twofold:
– There was insufficient time for the boomer to respond if Israel decided to launch since their crew drill on their short to medium range launch sites was impeccable (brought about by having to defend themselves 24/7/365)
And
– Boomers make a hell of a mess since at that time they were all armed with Polaris nuclear missiles (right Cyn and Sparkle?)
A separate theory is that the IDF had killed some Egyptian prisoners (the numbers of “massacred prisoners” vary from 300-3,000) and they were trying to make sure the US didn’t find out. How exactly the US was going to use a sigint boat 25 miles at sea to determine this isn’t exactly clear. If it had happened and you didn’t want a sigint boat to figure it out you just don’t talk about it on the net, you don’t attack the boat and possibly draw greater scrutiny.
What ever the motive, the accounts we take from the sailors indicate that the Israelies knew who they were shooting at.
Having been shot at a time or two, I can tell you it isn’t always clear who’s doing what or why – ask Pat Tillman…
Never any doubt about “who shot who” here the issue is did they do it knowingly and the answer is probably not. The Liberty didn’t sink, most of her crew survived and they all tell different tales. One thing that was clear from the CAPT is that the ship was obscurred in smoke after the first attack run.
Do these Leftwing America-Haters apply their revisionist propaganda to the Union when it warred w/ democrat plantation-owners to free the slaves…???
These Same liberals now steal power because Hundreds of thousands of WHITE Men freed them, and the democrat party minions…
Wonder if they hate the Union War Machine, that gave them their freedom w/ the Blood of people they now loathe????
IDIOTS….
Can’t you come up with a new post for each article instead of cutting and pasting the same crazy talk?
It may be that you’re just Too F*@!in Stupid to discern one collection of sentences from the other….
Yes, just like rape victims “ask for it,” eh, Will?
Sic, you are to blogging what Oliver Stone is to movie making!
I am amused by the idea that the tide was turning against the Axis at the time of Pearl Harbor attack.
The British leadership could not have figured out how to to defeat the Nazis. Look up Dieppe, where the Brits just one day decided on their own to stage an invasion of France. The losses were catastrophic and the lessons learned from the MISTAKES of Dieppe were what led to the successful Normandy campaign.
Does this conclusion reached simply because of the disastrous German invasion of the Soviet Union.
Nah, Will. Sure they wanted the attack. The words on paper prove it. But could this have been won without our help? No.
The most successful U.S. military tactic/strategy over the years has been overwhelming force. The Pentagon bases its supply strategy on that doctrine. In the Civil War, Grant won his bloody battles by having more bodies to throw into the fray than his Confederate compadres. And in WOrld War II, it was not overhelming troop numbers. We threw almost our entire civilian population and created an industrial machine that could not be overmatched. In other words, we threw everything against the Axis. Germans first, because they were the previous industrial master society. They could build and work, and do it on schedule.
Nope, that conclusion is so far-fetched it detracts from any other point you might have evidence for.
The “Arsenal of Democracy” more than any single other factor made victory possible for the Allies in WWII. British industry was just recovering prior to the war and it only got marginally better after the Battle of Britain. The Russians could build tanks but little else. They frequently picked up entire factories worth of equipment and set it up 200-300 miles to the rear as the Germans began their Eastern offensive. Most of the successful aircraft in the Eastern theater of the ETO were US lend lease provisions. Almost 20,000,000 tons of materials were provided to the USSR in WWII by the US and GB.
Our industrial machine was also protected by distance, whereas the Allied forces flattened most of German’s industrial capacity through strategic bombing.
Colonel, you say the Russians could build little else except tanks, however they did build over 1,000,000 Mosin Nagants 7.62 x 54R rifles during first 40 years of the twentieth century. They aint the prettiest things but they are well built and will last forever if given a little care.
I got a few and they still can defend the home front against enemies of all kinds, maybe even Zombies.
Was another Democrat’s approach to getting us out of a depression caused by trying to let the Fed lead us out of a recession by taking us to war… at least Obama doesn’t get four terms to screw us over like this.
Undoubtedly true. FDR was also quite taken with “Uncle Joe” and his grand and wonderful Russian reforms.
The U.S. moves prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor were correct responses to imperialist Japan’s aggressive policy towards its neighbors.
Indeed, the U.S. still uses embargoes and other trade weapons to countries who either ignore human rights or subject human beings to uncivilized behavior.
You say these actions provoked Japan? I say they brought it upon themselves.
The Germans could have handled the Russians if they hadn’t had to fight on two(really three) fronts at the same time. An invasion of the continent would never have happened without US help. If America had stayed out, the Germans eventually come back to deal with the Brits. Even with us, It was still a close run thing.
With the US , the outcome was inevitable – the issue was how long it would take and would the Germans have time to perfect the V series of weapons and arm them with a nuclear warhead.
It would have been a far uglier war if we hadn’t invaded until late 45-46.
Will seems to think that the Soviet counterattack against troops ON THEIR OWN SOIL is the equivalent of an imminent conquest of Germany.
He confuses a Soviet counterattack on Soviet turf as somehow foreshadowing a subsequent invasion and conquest of Germany.
I’ve read a lot of history, and I think this is the first place I’ve read it stated as fact that the Soviets and British could have defeated the Germans on their own. Up until US entered teh War, they were doing a piss poor job of it.
Dieppe disaster was further proof that even with US involvement and help, the Brits had the ability to potentially muck it up on their own.
Dumb. Just dumb.
You are an idiot!! It is inconceivable you had the nerve to print this garbage of this day.
Never mis-underestimate (thanks, Dubya) the “Founding Editor’s” audacity and willingness to sell his soul for a few more hits.
Not only is his research non-existent. He has no moral compass either.
I thought it was over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor
HELL NO! And it ain’t over now.
The wrong side(s) won. The US should have stayed out of WWII.
Like it or not, you cannot deny that:
We destroyed the last European government willing to fight for European culture AGAINST outside enemies, and now Europe is irrevocably “Eurabia”, infested with Muslims and other anti-modern primitives.
We defeated the Japanese which save Mao, creating modern China who is a far worse economic enemy than an unmolested Japan would have been.
Sure, the Germans and Japanese were nasty, but no worse than Stalin (who killed far more people than Hitler) or Mao.
Booyah^s comment is by far the most interesting in this thread.
I do not know if I agree with it, but it is an interesting take that I will ponder over a beer while watching football tomorrow.
A couple of points:
First, we are a country founded by the British. Culturally, we are closer to Great Britain than any other country. There is no way we would abandon them and leave them (and France and Holland) to the fate of the fascists. T
Second, so you admire “fighting for European culture,” when it consists of (a) conquering neighboring countries on the continent through blitzkrieg, (b) murdering citizens of entire towns (c), imprisoning undesirables in camps where many would ultimately perish through starvation or exhaustion or be exterminated, (d) burning books, (e) stealing historical treasures and artifacts and secreting them away where many would never re-surface, etc.?
I don’t think “fighting for European Culture” means quite the same to most as it does to you. Besides, the Germans were fighting for Nazi culture, not the culture of the Renaissance and Enlightenment.
I will give you credit for this post, though. Most Hitler and Nazi admirers keep it to themselves.
Huh…I kinda thought he was referring to Europe as a whole…interesting you(OGOB) think he refers to Germany only.
Ill be curious to see if Booyah comes back with a clarification either way.
Well, he said we destroyed the “last European government willing to fight for European culture . . .” I can’t think of any country he is referring to other than Germany.
The tide didn’t truly turn against the Axis until the second half of 1942, when Hitler let his Sixth Army be swallowed whole in the morass of Stalingrad. In late 1941, by comparison, the Germans had advanced more than a thousand miles through Soviet territory and were largely in still sticking it to the Soviets. Yes, they were getting some pushback, but the Soviets were being bled white.
I think Will watched the Oliver Stone version of US history recently being aired on cable.
You know, the one where everything is the fault of the USA, and the communists were just simple people trying to do good for mankind.
These oft-related arguments and positions are still interesting to read. Many seem to be a blend of history and nationalism.
For example, while the argument that the US made possible the Soviet success against Germany is commonly heard, the role of the Chinese nationalists and Communists (and British and Chindits and Gurkhas, etc.) in holding down vast numbers of Japanese troops on another front is rarely credited as critical to the long road of US success in island hopping. The war always seems to look different depending on where you are looking from.
It appears that Mr. Folks thumbed through a couple of articles from a soft cover issue of some magazine, written by a 31 year old adjunct junior college history professor, and was enamored by the author’s revisionist view of U.S. history.
Next Will Folks will be telling us how the white man brought gonorrhea and syphilis to the Native Americans and that our capitalistic way of life spoiled the Garden of Eden in the New World.
How about Adolph’s Hitler’s people’s car and his contributions paving the way for the interstate highway system? Problem is apx 6 million people kind of tarnished his achievements, huh Will?
“By Goyojimbo December 7, 2012 at 4:41 pm
The U.S. moves prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor were correct responses to imperialist Japan’s aggressive policy towards its neighbors. ”
Asia doesn’t belong to the US. It was not our business to throw away public treasure and public blood for FOREIGN COMPETITORS. The Japanese had the right idea about ruling China, and had the US not interfered CHINA WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN TO SUPERPOWER STATUS. Japan wouldn’t either due to size.
Fuck Asia. If YOU want to die for Asians, get the fuck over there and have at it.
The US doesn’t benefit from constant meddling over there. What’s worse, every time the US globalists throw away American lives and American treasure on such nonsense, it implies that the public these things are taken from is worthless.
If you would have Americans sacrifice for the rest of the world, you are essentially a traitor. I don’t give a shit if Japs kill Chinks kill Gooks until there are no more left. Not my countries so not my fucking business.